| CD Baby DIY Musician Podcast |
 June 29,
2009
Ep.65 : Matthew Ebel - Stream your concerts to the world
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| CD Baby Music Podcasts |
 Music Discovery
 Hip Hop
 60's Pop
 Rockabilly
 Top Sellers
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| Warning - American Idol Underground Legal Stuff |
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| posted by Mark Easley on Saturday October 29 2005 @ 08:27PM PDT |
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A website called American Idol Underground (AIU) recently offered a free trial account to CD Baby artists who have digital distribtuion.
I have just finished reviewing the Artist Agreement required by American Idol Underground.
http://roxy.ailogic.com/lt/lt4.php?uniqid=aidol.2140.108.494.392&dst=7330
I must say, this is the most one sided and onerous contract I have seen in 25 years of reviewing business contracts. I am afraid that many of you loyal CD Baby artists will be duped into signing up for this without carefully reading it.
DO NOT LOG IN TO AMERICAN IDOL UNDERGROUND UNLESS YOU COMPLETELY READ AND UNDERSTAND THIS AGREEMENT.
Here are a few of the many outrageous examples from this AIU agreement:
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Subject to the terms of this Agreement, you hereby grant to us and our licensees the non-exclusive right throughout the universe and in perpetuity to:
No rational person grants anything this broadly, especially given AIU's agreement termination clause, which is:
a. We reserve the right, in our sole discretion, to change, modify, add or delete all or part of the provisions of this Agreement.
b. We shall have the right to terminate this Agreement at any time and for any reason.
Which means that the agreement is totally non-binding on them, and they can cancel it at any time, but it is totally binding on the artist, who has no right to cancel it, ever, with the exception of a 5 day window if AIU decides to modify anything or everything. This is nuts.
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b. For the avoidance of doubt, we and our licensees shall have the right to use the Submitted Content as authorized herein in connection with the AI UNDERGROUND Site or any other websites that are owned, controlled, affiliated with, or licensed by us or our licensees.
Besides being an unfair contract, the artist does not even know who the contract is WITH! It is between the artist and anybody else that AIU decides to grant license rights to, from now on, forever, and with whoever those licensees decide to license to from now on, forever. No rational person provides unlimited sublicensing without notice for any kind of property. This is also nuts.
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h. You acknowledge that we have and will be receiving a large amount of submitted material. You further acknowledge that we have had, and will continue to have access to and/or may independently create, or may have created, materials that are similar and/or identical to any item of Submitted Content. Accordingly, you hereby expressly agree that you shall not be entitled to any compensation by reason of any use of such similar or identical materials and you further irrevocably agree to waive and release us from any and all claims, liabilities, damages, costs and expenses that you may therwise have the right to claim against us and/or our successors, assigns, agents, managers, affiliates and licensees by reason of us having access to the Submitted Content and the use of such similar and/or identical
materials.
In other words, you hereby waive all your copyrights to all your materials! What the...?
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I could go on and on about all the obligations required for the artist, and all the waivers inserted for AIU. Basically this agreement guarantees that if any legal problems occur, some poor artist is going to be defending AIU at his or her own expense.
This agreement appears to be written by Nazis, not lawyers. I suggest you read this VERY carefully and make sure you understand it before logging in to American Idol Underground.
Oh BTW, just by logging in as AIU requested in their email, they are claiming you agree to this bull crap. So some of you artists have probably already mistakenly fallen into the trap!
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BEFORE YOU GET YOUR KNICKERS IN A TWIST, everyone, calm down and don't over-react.
I know Bob Buch who started American Idol Underground, I know their lawyer, and the company is not a scam. What you are reading here is a bulletin board post from one guy who doesn't like the contract.
Thanks to Mark Easley who took the time to analyze it publicly for everyone. Of course you should never sign a contract without reading it - but you should also not freak-out in response, STILL without reading it!
Fellow CD Baby artist Jason Clark (MUNKIE) also read the contract, and here's his points:
section 5: Ownership - clearly states that you (the artist) retain all copyrights to the submitted works.
"all right, title and interest in and to the Submitted Content shall remain your property"
section 1: Authorization - "Subject to the terms of this Agreement, you hereby grant to us and our licensees the non-exclusive right throughout the universe and in perpetuity to"
Simply means that you are granting them a non-exclusive licence to use your works, your name and the titles on their website and in all their promotions throughout the world in all media formats for the life of the copyright (which is 50 years after you die) This is a standard independent contract for licencing material, just worded badly.
Personally I don't think anyone has anything to worry about, it is non-exclusive so you are free to promote, licence, distribute, publish your music to other sources. You retain all your rights to the song, recorded works, titles and likeness. Over my years of being involved in the music industry I have seen many contracts much worse that this. (asking the artist to sign all copyrights to the publisher in perpetuity - so you have no further claim to the recorded work, song or title).
As to charging you for further promotion of the song that is nothing new - there are lots of companies doing this now, my advice is just don't pay for it.
You can contact American Idol Underground directly with any questions. It's your music and you're still the boss.
To those that are asking, "How could you have promoted this company with a contract like this" - please understand that when we emailed everyone last July, AIU had not yet started, and they did not have any contracts in place.
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FOR THE RECORD, HERE IS A COPY OF THE EMAIL THAT I SENT TO EVERYONE ON JULY 13, 2005.
NOTE that the contract that some people don't like was not even written until months later - in October.
Also note that you had to VERY knowingly log in to your account with your username and password, and jump through a few hoops (another "are you SURE you want us to send your music to American Idol Underground for free?" step) to have us send them your music. I just don't buy the accusation that we "tricked" people into something. This was just another typical opportunity I forwarded on to our members in case they were interested.
-- Derek
Sometimes we get the opportunity to send your music somewhere as an optional free favor to you.
See below for an offer from American Idol Underground. Please read his email, and if you're interested, use the links we've set up here to submit your music to them:
First, LOG IN to your account, here:
https://members.cdbaby.com/
After you log in, click this link to jump right to the opt-in page:
https://members.cdbaby.com/dd-optin?opt-in=63
If you do that, we will upload the album of your choice to them, (one album per artist, please) - and we will give them your email address, so they can email you directly for more info (like which song to use, etc).
NOTE: This is NOT a part of our regular digital distribution. This is just a one-time promotion. We will NOT be the agent/distributor/contact for them. IF YOU DO THIS, your relationship will be directly with them. We will just be the ones that sent them your music, up front, as a convenience to you.
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Dear CD Baby Artists,
My name is Bob Buch, and I am the Co-Founder of Fluid Audio Networks - the company that is producing American Idol Underground. (I am also a CD Baby Artist.) Like Derek, my colleagues and I were motivated to start this business by the fact that there was too much great music that was not getting heard. We are committed to the democratization of the music business and our promise to emerging artists is to "get your music heard."
American Idol Underground is open to artists of any age, (can be bands, too, not just singers!), with original or cover songs, and has a place for every musical genre, including Rock, Rap, R&B, Co
untry, Pop, Folk, Electronica, Jazz, Classical, World, Christian, Spoken Word and Comedy.
All music submitted to the American Idol Underground online radio network is guaranteed airplay, and listeners are incentivised to rate music accurately and fairly. The better songs get more airplay and the best songs win prizes which include musical equipment, high profile concert tours, and recording contracts.
Ordinarily the submission cost is $50 per song, but because of our partnership with CD Baby, we are offering free membership to CD Baby artists through August 31st.
If you opt-in through CD Baby's link by August 31, your music will be included in our radio programs when the American Idol Underground service launches in October. Once you opt-in, we will contact you with details about accessing your account and viewing statistics on your song's spin count and ratings.
For more information, you can visit http://www.idolunderground.com - and if you have any questions, you can contact us at cdbaby@idolunderground.com
We hope you will join this historic initiative to democratize the music business.
Thank you,
Bob Buch
Co-Founder and COO
Fluid Audio Networks
bbuch@fluidaudio.com
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I just always thought CD Baby was screening these offers, which was a silly assumption on my part
We are. We do. This one seemed fine. We told you about it months before they wrote this contract.
But, at the same time, I did also make it very clear last July that this was NOT part of our digital distriubtion deal, that we would NOT be in the middle of this - that the relationship would be directly between you and them. That we could send your music to them as a favor, but that would be the end of our involvement.
- Derek
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| by
on Sunday October 30 2005 @ 05:04PM PST [ reply | parent ] |
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Yes I "CYA" (covered my ass) - because I was making it clear that I was just telling you about some company I heard about. Read the letter, above.
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I just always thought CD Baby was screening these offers???
well if cd baby dont screen the artists for quality...
How on earth are they gonna screen companies???
Cd baby model is get as many artists as you can to make critical
mass and lots of money in next 10 years...
Cd baby model aims to get you to as many companies as
possible...
Dereck asks you to make decisions...
But he cant make a decision on who to take instore or
distribution...
never says 'QUALITY' in his little CD Baby model lines...
and lack of quality in the end...
Well you know what happens when people dont sell or stop
selling after a while...
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I received the email but never logged in as the email they sent seemed ridiculous...I went to my cdbaby page unchecked all songs for promotion/lic. But now when I go to idolunderground's website, it still shows my album with info for all the songs still in rotation I presume.
Question: How do I cancel with them and make sure they aren't playing my music??? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
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I've recently sent a polite email explaining to IdolUnderground that I wish to no longer participate in their program and asked that they take my music off of the website so that it is no longer in rotation. Although I never logged in a accessed my account to initiate the process it seemed they were playing it anyway. Not sure exactly what was going on but I don't have to worry about it now. To those of you who would like to cancel just send an email to info@idolunderground.com and ask that they take your music off of their site.
Hope this helps any of you!
Peace
j
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What is the process for cancelling the America Idol Underground membership?
Did you do it thru their web site? I don't see anything there? Or can this be done thru CD Baby?
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I remember getting this email and I opted in since it was free to CDBaby artists. I thought the original deal was to have one track uploaded free. I figured that would be a good way to get exposure for the rest of the songs. But I never did get a follow up email from AIU. Oh well, maybe that's for the best.
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Oh brother...THX man. Just cancelled!
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Thanks for the heads up. I was able to cancel my account. I had originally opened the email, and followed the link, and it didn't really give you many features, and wanted you to purchase rotation for your songs, which I thought a bit too much as well....
Thanks again,
Jeffrey Backus
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When I received the e-mail from AIU and read over the agreement red flags were blazing from the beginning until the end of it. I was going to contact the company with questions that I had about the agreement. I am happy that I did not log in and I am grateful for the e-mail sent by CD baby staff informing members of the concerns that other members were having. The comments of the CDbaby members just confirmed my original feelings about AIU customer agreement. I noticed that even though I did not log in, I went to the site and noticed that AIU stills has my information on their site with one of my songs. I noticed that on the e-mail sent out by AIU that at the bottom of the e-mail that provided us with our user name and password that it indicates that our music is already in rotations. The e-mail went on to indicate that AIU selected which songs they like out of the songs provided when they were originally forwarded in July. This is a quote from the e-mail sent by AIU “There are certain rights we need in order to promote your music effectively, and even though you have received a free trial account, these terms still apply to you. By logging into your account, you are agreeing to these terms.” So even if you have not logged in please e-mail and asked for your information to be removed. I have e-mailed the company with my concerns and asked for immediate removal of my material. I also asked them to reply and inform me of the outcome and to indicate if further action was required for removal. I will post their reply when I receive it.
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thanks for the heads up to these posts, derek. it does look like something i don't want to be involved with.
i had not received any login info, but they did have a profile for me, with an account, and my music all up on their site. i went ahead and entered my password under "lost my password", they sent the password to my email, and i logged in and deleted the account. this did result in no longer being able to log in AND it resulted in no longer being able to find me or my music on their site thru their search engine. i'm no lawyer, but i'd recommend anyone do that.
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Well, I was one of the unfortunate one's that logged in. After reading your statement, I just logged in and deleted my account, then signed on to the site and searched for my info. and I was no longer on the site. Hopefully, that'll take care of it. I will be much more careful in the future!
Amy Peterson
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Here's what we sent in regarding all of our materials.
Make sure you cover all the bases and all the variables!
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AIU;
We have reviewed your published “Artist Agreement” and your published “Terms and Conditions”.
Having also reviewed these and all other pertinent documentation with our attorneys, we are hereby serving you notice that we have not logged in and will not log in.
Your “Artist Agreement” and “Terms and Conditions” are not acceptable in any form or fashion and appear to be in violation of many sections of the Consumer Protection Act.
Therefore, having not logged in, it is our position that we have not agreed to any such stated “Artist Agreement” or “Terms and Conditions” and hereby, and forthwith, declare and assert that any actual or presumed association with “American Idol Underground”, also known as “AIU”, to be null and void, and otherwise immediately terminated.
You are hereby instructed and advised to immediately remove all music, in any form or format; all lyrics, in any form or format; and any specific or referenced name or association thereof, of any songs, song titles, lyrics, group name, or individual name reference, from any and all of your services and content, actual or otherwise, whether presently in publication or as may be considered works in progress.
This notice is specific in reference to any and all works associated with AIU’s issued identifiers as;
Username: smcb@micro.com
Password: **************
This notice shall be deemed as accepted by you upon immediate receipt of said electronically disseminated message through your published electronic mail addresses as listed below;
support@idolunderground.com
cdbaby@idolunderground.com
aidol.494.2140.2004@ailogic.com
So delivered this 30th day of October, 2005;
Sincerely,
Steven D. McBride (BMI)
Stevie Mac Music (BMI)
steve@soundgateproductions.com
www.soundgateproductions.com
cc: Legal File
BMI, Inc.
CD Baby
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BTW,
A big THANK YOU to Derek for everything he does.
No matter what your venture in life is, there are going to be good deals/bad deals, good guys/bad guys.
Derek's one of the good deals/good guys.
Thanks man!
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American Idol has ROBERT KEENAN as artist,but has the album cover of my old band DEAD STREET CORNER up on the page. It shows a song list from the DEAD STREET CORNER cd but then at the bottom is a song from the ROBERT KEENAN cd called ALL I WANT, then when its played its a different song from the ROBERT KEENAN cd called LITTLE BILLY and its the song getting spins. ITS all COMPLETLY SCREWED UP. I never did a contract with them but I e mailed them and told them to take all of it down,I want nothing to do with them since their work is so sloppy.
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I am very grateful to have been informed that there was a question about this whole American Idol Underground thing. I made the mistake of getting involved on the merits of CDBaby's association with the project. I cancelled this evening. To cancel you just log on to the American Idol Underground web site - in tiny type at the bottom of your account page will be the cancellation link. Hard as it was to find the link, the remove was immediate. My music and account were gone instantly. Again - I, too, am grateful to Derek for bringing all of this to our attention.
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RE: American Idol Underground
I received Derek's emails the weekend of October 29, 2005 and read part of the American Idol Underground contract. I too have my suspicions, as we all know that American Idol contestants and winners need hit songs...so I don't like the fact that they can have these artists sing your songs with royalties in question.
Back in my day, we were warned about song thieves and although I'm not claiming that American Idol Underground are definitely song thieves, I for one choose to stay away from them. Trouble is, I agreed with the contract when they sent me the invite:-( All those songs on my CD are copywrited as of 1992 and back; and a cover of Lou Reed's Heroin is on the album. So, don't try and lift those songs American Idol Underground - I don't think it will stand up in court:)
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| by
on Tuesday November 01 2005 @ 04:35PM PST [ reply | parent ] |
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bmi/ascap and mcps sued by labels and digital stores...
THIS WEEK I RECEIVED MY PAYMENT FROM BOTH CD BABY
(GOOD AND ON TIME!) AND MECHANICALS, I NOTICED A BIG
DELAY & A DECREASE IN MY MECHANICALS CHECK.
I CALLED THEM UP AND THEY TOLD ME THAT MOST OF THE
DIGITAL STORES THEYRE EITHER LATE OR FAIL TO PAY THEM. IF
YOU GOT THE SAME PROBS MAYBE YOU SHOULD NT COMPLAIN
AT BMI OR ASCAP BUT MOST LIKELY COMPLAIN AT THE STORES
FOR NOT PAYING RTISTS AND PUBLISHERS UP!!!
BY THE WAY THE BIG MAJORS NOT PAYING FOR DOWNLOADS TO
THEIR ARTISTS, A LITTLE BIRDIE HAS TOLD ME ALSO THEY DONT
ACCOUNT FOR RECORD SALES. CCONTRACTS SIGNED BETWEEN
LABELS AND ARTISTS PREVIOUS TO DIGITAL DO NOT STATE
THAT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO GET PAID FOR DOWNLOADS
SINCE ITS NOT STREAMING-BROADCASTING OR SELLING AND
INFERIOR PRODUCT (NOT STATED IN RECORDING CONTRACTS/
DEALS) WHICH DOESNT ACCOUNT AS A SINGLE RECORD OR AN
ALBUM...
AND NOW THE BIGGIES DONT WANNA PAY THE ARTISTS
ROYALTIES ON THE NET EITHER!!!
A SYSTEM THAT GENERATES BILLIONS OF DOLLARS A YEAR AND
PAYS THEIR EXECS. SKYROCKETING WAGES AND INDULGE
THEMSELVES IN EUROPEAN VILLAS ARE NOT MAKING ENOUGH
FOR THE MUSIC OR THE CREATORS OF THE MUSIC THEMSELVES...
CHECK THIS ARTICLE
http://www.mcps.co.uk/redirect.asp?targetitem=4573&sid=834
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I have noticed some additional "anomolies" on AIU. I had 3 songs posted and paid for in their rotation. 2 of the songs had 3 or 4 hits with an average of 5.0. Just as I was pondering how well they were doing, they suddenly changed to 2.5 and 2.8 without any change in the play count. Then 2 listens later they were both magicly down to 1.8. I sent an email asking how this could happen and never got back a response on how a 5.0 turned into a 2.5 without additonal plays. They did say however that 2.5 to 1.8 is possible because registered listeners have way higher priority than unregistered. Additionally, the hit count barely changed from week to week - I got more hits and listens simply adding my profile to isound.com which cost me nothing. The above has me wondering if these counters actually mean anything at all or if they are randomly generated numbers. There does not appear to be any way to confirm who reviewed what. Maybe other people are getting mileage out of this site but for me this was a total waste of my time. I definitely will not be spending any more money on that site.
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Mark,
I haven't heard from them yet, thank goodness. When I do, I
won't open the email. Thank you so much for this heads up.
You've done a good deed.
Dottie
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Thanks for the warning about American Idol Underground. Much appreciated. Hopefuly it's not too late for most of us to back out if one chooses to.
Dennis Fermin
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I already signed up and logged in, but went ahead and canceled my account with them. Hopefully that will void the contract....
Thanks for the heads up...it's a bit late, but thanks anyway...
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Once again something with the words "American Idol" in it, turns
out to be a total peice of crap. Thank you so much for doing the
hard work of reading and translating this contract for us!
It is amazing that private organizations are still trying to take
advantage of people who have very little. I thought that the US
government reserved the rights on that!
I trust the stuff the Derek and the fantastic CDbaby team send to
me. I usually agree to most of the stuff they send without any
question. I hope that in the future that they will read the fine
print before they send this stuff out. I'm not complaining, I'm
just saying that I like the idea of CDbaby being a filter for the
bad crap out there!
Anyway, thank you Derek & everyone at CDbaby! We couldn't do
it without you guys and to Mark Easly for bringing this to our
attention.
Peace
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I wish to cancel being with American Idol Underground.
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I'm not sure if i'm signed up with them but if i am.. i want to cancel! They shouldn't be so devious and basically stealing peoples works of art..
This needs to be looked into more carefully and they should be fined for such acts!
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Wow. I feel like a total idiot. I just logged on and deleted my account, I hope that will cease this problem for me. I have really learned my lesson. I wrongly assumed that I could trust that anything that came from CDBaby was a reliable resource. Thanks for posting this info -hope it's not too late...
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We read this BS agreement. If anyone signed up. Just login to your account and delete account. We just replied "no thanks" logged in and deleted entire account. What a crock of sh*(
MAJOR JOKE.
DRW- OCTANE RECORDS LLC
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I assume that by just ignoring the e-mail and not logging in you actually do not legally agree to their contract and thus are not beholden?
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Please make sure these idiots honor "no thanks" and "delete account"
Octane Records LLC
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Thank you so much for drawing my awareness to checking terms and conditions. It sounds like some people take advantage of the numbers game. i.e. the statistics for just clicking the "I agree" box without reading must be so high it could be a huge money spinner!
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I'd bet it wouldn't stand up in court. Far too overreaching in both language and intent. Unfortunately, I already logged in. Pricks.
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I thinks it's awsome that you exposed the AIU. If people have singed the contract not knowing what it really ment, like myself! How do you get out of it? Your response would be much appreciated!
JC
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Account deleted, password instantly no good. I should've suspected something when the profile asked for my credit card info (which I did NOT give them...).
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Thanks for the heads up. My band won't be participating in the AIU program.
I agree with Tom Smith that if it came down to a lawsuit, at least some of this language probably wouldn't be held binding on the artist, but who wants to do business with a company that writes such a one-sided contract?
Maybe one day every co. will be like CDBaby, with fair contracts in plain English, but until then, this is a good reminder to always read the fine print.
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As soon as I saw they were charging money I
cancelled. Never pay anybody to play your music.
There's plenty of free sites and internet radio
stations who'll play your stuff for free.
And always read contracts in full before agreeing
to them. ie, print the damn thing out and spend
a week going over every paragraph. If you have
any questions, write to the people who wrote it.
If they ignore you or don't answer your questions
in full, you can be pretty sure it's a scam.
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Mark
you beat me to the punch. I read that aggreement and thought it was waaaaaay over the top. It read like "Instant Tyrant Online record Mogul" pulling all kinds of tricks in attempt to own rights to indie music.
----------------------------------------
If you already joined:
Here is how you can delete your accounts.( fRom fAQ link In the email)
How can I delete my account?
Should you choose to remove your music from AIU, you may do so by account by selecting the "Delete My Account" link at the bottom of your account page. Once your account has been deleted, you will not be able to recover any rating information or uploaded songs.
Gene.
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Mark,
Thanks for pointing this out. Like many, I had fallen for this and
like many, I have now deleted my account with them. I also agree
with Tom Smith that this contract would not stand up in court, but
let's pray that no one here ever has to find out. Thanks again. I'd
suggest to Derek and CDBaby that they maybe examine stuff like
this more carefully before sending it out to everyone, but I'm glad
they e-mailed me to point out this thread.
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Well, as usual, when I got their message, I didn't have time to deal with it. Still don't. So I guess all I have to do is delete their message. I think if we all just remember that if it's too good to be true, it's too good to be true.
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Thanks to Mark Easley and Derek Silvers for hilighting some of the potential pitfalls of this agreement. Since CD Baby provides such amazing service to the independent musician, an AIU affiliation seemed like a trust-worthy route, especially since the TV show is huge and Kelly Clarkson has actually gone on to succeed.
Thankfully, before I logged into the AIU site, I started reading the agreement and thought it too onerous to get through at the time and planned to read through it later (like this weekend).
Luckily, I saw Derek's e-mail about this post and have promptly requested removal from AIU since I have yet to login. These terms ARE insane, especially the last point about foregoing copyright and any of your other rights for similar or "identical" music that you have submitted. This means that Simon and his cronies will take your songs and re-record it with Kelly Clarkson or any other established act. Or even easier, they just re-release it as their own and you'll get nothing. Thanks Simon, I always knew you were a stand-up industry guy; now this proves it!
So if you have yet to login to AIU, don't and request to be removed. If you have logged in, try to get out ASAP. I would assume that if a large enough group of artists pulled out (not sure how many CD Baby artists signed up), they might ammend their agreement to avoid losing a large part of their content. Then again, they just might be counting on the fact that even with places like CD Baby and the internet, artists are all too willing to be the victim of their bloated musical cartel for even the remotest promise of success.
All hail Derek Sivers as the heir apparent to the music industry. Your artist-centric approach to the music business will serve you well in the long run. Thanks for recognizing that now.
Dave Moore
8HEAD.com
noizemerchant.com
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I was in the same boat as David Moore...I was going to give it my attention this evening. Whew! All hail the whistle-blowers among us!!
By the way...there's only one problem with logging in to AIU to cancel...you have to log in! That didn't sit too well with me, so I e-mailed this to their 'copyight' 'support' addresses AND Derek Sivers for third party corroboration instead:
American Idol Underground,
Please remove my CD (Artist: Moonlight Graham; Title: Palookaville) from your service post haste. It was delivered to you via CD Baby for digital distribution prior to CD Baby members becoming privy to your contractual demands and provisions regarding your service.
Upon being made aware of cede demands and provisions, I have decided to withdraw my submission. Please delete all digital copies of the music contained in the aforementioned work as of Sunday, October 30th, 2005.
I have not logged in to confirm my membership, and have not, therefore, agreed to your contract.
Please e-mail me to confirm the removal and deletion of my entire work from your service.
Thank you,
Graham Greer
aka:moonlight graham
Anyway, I may be over-cautious...but if they were willing to pull our feet out from under us one way.....
Cheers all,
Graham
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If you delete the account does that release you from this crazy outfit. I did log in (stupid) but deleted my account right away. I also sent them an email to make sure it was history. I searched their database and I was not in there....That stops them right? Any thoughts? Thanks
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hey guys-i just woke up and read this - so forgive me if i sound
- you know - like i just woke up and wrote this. first off- derek
and cd baby are legit. but - i hope cd baby doesn't turn into a
sonicbids thing where people start to make more money off of
our dreams. if you think we get solicited as individual artists,
you should take a peek at derek's email inbox. he's sitting on
top of thousands of artists (and their trust with him) and i'd be
willing to bet that there are tons of sharks out there trying to get
at us- to make a quick buck somehow-through derek and cd
baby.
point here is that i believe derek was way too busy getting cool
stuff ready for cd baby members to really go over this 'contract'.
reality says that out of the thousands of people that american
idol solicited, only a small percentage will reply and join. out of
that small percentage, only a few will "qualify'. and out of those
few...well...the point is - don't worry about any contract goggly
smoogly crap because none of us in cd baby are corny enough
or dumb enough to be affiliated, selected, or awarded anything
with AI.
you guys remember the actual show - american idol? they
interviewd 70,000 plus folks and boiled them down to a few
dozen. everybody sang cover songs and helped sell a lot of
products like coke and subway sandwiches. in the end,
everybody got mocked, belittled, and judged by a guy named
simon who can't sing a note to save his life...you see where i'm
going with this?
AI is simply another net - cast out wide to try and scoop up
some little fish like us.
derek - you rock, but please keep an open and screening eye for
this stuff and push the crap to the side. and fellow cd baby
members-put down the "contract" and the computer and go
write some more music - right now. remember - the more we
write, record, tour, and sell - the better chances we all have of
making some progress, some money, and keeping the cd baby
family alive!
peace....
(i have to admit, it would be great to meet Paula Abdul)
Bill
www.billwest.tv
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Bill - there was no contract when Bob asked me last July if I'd put out the word to CD Baby members that he was starting this new company.
It seemed legit so I let you guys know.
This is the first I've heard of them having a contract - which is why I let you know right away.
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Thank you for your unwaivering vigilance, Derek!
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Thank you for making us aware of this. I have cancelled my account as well and hope that will be the end of that.
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Well...I got their email and logged in with the password given to me and it immediately pulled up a song submission page...requesting $50 per song to put up on their site. After a few minutes of laughing hysterically, I logged off and trashed the email! Never got as far as their contract...
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AMERICAN IDOL DOESN'T NEED A MEGA LAWSUIT FROM CD BABY LABLES/ ARTISTS IT WOULD SCREW UP THEIR TV SHOW. BUT IF THEY TAKE AND SELL MUSIC THAT PEOPLE SAY "NO THANKS" OR "DELETE MY ACCOUNT" THEY WILL GET SUED, AND LOSE THEIR CREDIBILITY.
PLEASE MAKE SURE THEY STICK TO THE SCRIPT IF PEOPLE SAY "NO THANKS" OR "DELETE MY ACCOUNT".
PS~ THANKS FOR THE HEADSUP= CROOKS LIKE THIS SHOULD BURN IN HELL, PLUS THEY WANT YOUR CREDIT CARD INFO. SCAM???
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Saw the contract yesterday-was shocked. Hopefully, if you don't sign in, everything OK. It stinks.
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American Idol has credibility?
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I hadn't gotten an email either that I can recall...did this thing go out recently?
Even so, I went to their site and noticed that they had a page for me with one song up. So I indicated that I'd lost my password, received a password that was a number of digits, went in and deleted my account. I wasn't asked to approve anything and I don't recall ever agreeing to their contract, yet my content was up.
For those of you who haven't logged in, I'd be curious to know if your content is already on the site.
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Like all before - - thanks to Mark and Derek for the quick heads up. I have noticed where some are placing implicit trust in CDBaby and the offers they forward to us. CDBaby does a job above and beyond for independents, however anything we are referred to by 'ANYONE' has to be reviewed very carefully. Derek, et al, are only providing us with the information and it's up to the rest of us to research and find out if it fits the bill. Thanks again Derek and the rest of your staff.
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I am appreciative of the info, but I feel as though, what the HELL is a shite shady web group doing in affiliation with CDBABY? I trust CDBABY when they solicit new companies to me. Now, as the artist, I understand we should not use anyone as a filtration system because of our laziness in reading a contract. I appreciate everyone's advice. Doesn't surprise me though. America's music scene is in the gutter. And as far as American Idol goes, and everything with that *name* on it, it is sickening to believe that in our society today, talent is measured in cups by a panel of people who don't play instruments and is demonstrated by the highly esteemed and ever popular KARAOKE.... if I knew having talent and winning over a crowd just took a karaoke song, and good looks, I would have told my mom to shove that guitar up her ass when I was 10!
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If I received a follow-up from AI asking me to login, I didn't remember seeing it. Since I didn't login, and therefore cannot be presumed to have agreed to the contract, I don't see that I need to do anything at all (ie delete my account as some of you suggested). If they use my music in any way other than what was represented when I first signed up, I should have grounds for a lawsuit. (Probably they'll delete my account automatically, or at least exclude me from the competition, if I don't log in)
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Oh dear.
I've been on a string of night shifts and not excatly cut out for reading small print. Logged in using the given user name password and loaded up some info, band URL etc, in a 'flu induced delirium yesterday!
I have since deleted the account and also sent a confirming email to AIU (printed below in case anyone wants to copy and paste it/parts of it to save you a few minutes. Arseholes and scumbags.
*******************
Hello
I wish to confirm that I have deleted my free account
User name: greencatmusic@yahoo.com
Password: xxxxxxxx
The above details were sent in a previous email by you in the last two days. I went to your web site to add the missing details of my band as requested. The account was sent via CDBaby.com who are constantly sending its artists oportunities to showcase their music.
I had understood the contract and terms and conditions had been scrutinized and approved by CDBaby on their artists' behalf but learned today this is not the case. I had rushed home from work and responded to your email not having read or indeed opened your t & c files at all.
Today I learned the nature of the contract from a fellow CDBaby artist. I would never agree to 'sign' such an agreement, had I read it, which I have not yet had time to do. I have therefore deleted my account. Please do not play my music in any context. Please delete any of my music sent to you by CDBaby. I reserve the right to decide, in a considered manner, having read thoroughly any contracts, before agreeing to your or any similar sites sent through by email by CDBaby.
Thank you for your time in reading this. A confirmation email would be greatly appreciated.
Your sincerely
*********************************************
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This is what I just emailed to support@idolunderground.com:
We just became aware of the unacceptable terms of agreement that are attached to the American Idol Underground program associated with CD Baby
http://cdbaby.org/stories/05/10/29/2841659.html
CD Baby has treated all of us very well heretofore. What you and your contract are doing is the antithesis of everything good and kind in the indy music scene.
Cancel our account immediately. Your terms are unacceptable.
Sincerely,
Dean Calin
Bounding Main
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I went to cancel my account as soon as Derek's email hit ... and my password has been changed. I cannot log in.
I asked for the new one to be sent, but it's not here yet. Damned slow-ass instant communications. (Been 30 minutes with no password, so I think we're in trouble)
Another interesting thing ... as far as my artist-by-artist search reveals, they have NO artists other than those referred by CDBaby. We have all been well and truly taken; including you, Derek.
Anyway, here is the email I sent as I wait for my "new" password.
-------------------
Remove any and all music/lyrics by Kristen S. Gielecki, Vicki Wangler-Blackmore, Joe Schweigert, and Roy Horton, (DBA and hereafter referred to as Hope Diamond) immediately.
I am cancelling our account with you by way of both this email and your site. The business tactics of AIU are reprehensible and well worthy of prosecution. We most emphatically do not agree to the stated terms.
All materials and reference regarding the music, lyrics, band name, and/or images of Hope Diamond are to be removed from both your site and from any and all backup devices.
Kristen S. Gielecki
Representing
Hope Diamond
-----------------
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I received the email. I read it, but I did NOT log in with the password provided.
Doing a search on AIU, I found "my" page. My audio file is available.
Even though I did not log in using the password emailed to me, I emailed AUI and requested my information be removed.
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Thanks so much for this info. I was holding this email for when I had time to sign up, and I feel blessed that I didnt do anything with it.
It's a shame how people try to take advantage of artists just trying to live their dream.
God bless you for checking this out and posting here. I LOVE CDbaby.
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EVEN IF YOU DIDN'T GET THE EMAIL OR RESPOND TO IT, DO NOT
ASSUME YOUR MUSIC IS NOT ON THEIR SITE. MINE WAS ON
THEIR SITE AND I NEVER GOT THE EMAIL FROM THEM NOR GAVE
THEM PERMISSION TO POST IT.
I, too, had not received an email or ever logged into their site to
register. But after getting the email from Derek and reading
through this entire thread and coming across Allison's, I decided
to go to the site and did a search for my name. Every song from
my CD was on their site and I had not given them permission to
put them on there. Even had 28 spins of one of my songs and 4
views of my profile.
I SUGGEST EVERYONE GO TO THEIR SITE AND DELETE YOUR
ACCOUNT. Their site is:
http://www.idolunderground.com.
I was never given a password because I NEVER registered or gave
them permission to put my music up, yet my music was on their
site. IS THIS LEGAL????? I know I never registered because when I
register on a new site, I use a unique email address which I
create specificly for the site I'm registering on. Had I registered
on this site my email address would've been
idolunderground@lanakress.com. But the one that worked to
request my password was the one I use for CDBaby.com which is
cdbaby@lanakress.com. Once I entered that email address, it
emailed my password to that email address.
I then clicked on "MY ACCOUNT" which is at the top of the
screen under the "Welcome message". "Delete my Account" can
be found in the bottom right corner of the screen. Click on that
and your account will be deleted. Double-check by searching for
your name. If your account was successfully deleted, you should
see "No data to display".
When CDBaby sent my CD to them, did they give them
permission to post my music on their site? Because it was on
their site and I never gave them permission...or did I give
permission when I agreed to let CDBaby send them my CD?
Now I'm wondering if I should google my name and check every
site it appears to make sure other sites aren't selling my music
without my permission.
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Thx Lana, that was exactly our situation as well; never received the AIU email, never read the contract (which doth stink like 3 day old diapers), but our music was there. Not any more!
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I just deleted my account. When I tried to login again my password wasn't recognised. Then I did an artist search for my content and it had all gone. When I first got the email from American Idol all I did was login to see what it was about. I never signed any agreement or gave my CC details. I'm praying I'm now completely free of any legally binding contract with these sharks!!! Would be very grateful if anyone can confirm this is the case!?
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Actually, the phrase:
non-exclusive right throughout the universe and in
perpetuity
is not uncommon in modern publishing agreements. The
important thing is that it is non-exclusive. "Throughout the
universe" just gives them license to broadcast your music to the
intergalactic Internet in 2020 or whenever the opportunity arises
unless you cancel your agreement.
in connection with the AI UNDERGROUND Site or any other
websites that are owned, controlled, affiliated with, or licensed
by us or our licensees.
So if they spin off a subsidiary site or service, you don't have to
seek out a new agreement with each variation of the original
licensee. If a local FM radio station spawns an AM affiliate, I want
them to have access to play my music also.
You do want your music available to new markets as they
emerge, right? And you don't want to have to chase each one
one your own time if your existing licensees can do it for you.
And every contract you have with a bank, telecom, or other
service business is "subject to change". They generally let you
know in writing, and if you don't like the change, you can cancel.
This one is no different.
Of course, you have to trust AIU's business intentions and decide
they are the right licensee for you. I agree there are other parts
of the agreement that are a concern such as the "similar or
idential content" phrase. You have to decide if this is OK. But the
paragraphs I mention above don't surprise or concern me all that
much.
I am not a lawyer and not qualified to give legal
advice. If you are serious about this, you should get a lawyer.
emphasis> But if you are looking for a totally artist-friendly,
music-centric, legally accomodating publishing or broadcasting
service, you're not going to have many options. Business is
business, after all.
~David
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I can't believe that I would actually agree to allow ALL my songs to be used by any one organization, but when I went to my page on AIU, they had all my songs listed in full length, in one spot! Why does anyone need to buy my CD?
Somehow, I thought that they would play a song here or there on a radio like program....NOT PROVIDE LINKS FOR THE FULL SONG IN ONE SPOT.
I never agreed to their contract, but they have been playing my songs anyway. How's that?
I have sent an email and cancelled my account. Hopefully that takes care of it.
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Not only will I be deleting Sean's account, but did anyone mention or notice it's $50.00 PER SONG to get them into rotation???? Did anyone get that far? I saw that and almost fell out of my chair laughing. What is this? Emergenza?
I know it's not... but I'm really sick of these "contests" etc that prey on the almost always "struggling" musician. I'll check out the HC boards, and finish my ranting there.
Thanks for the heads up.
:)
Laura
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OH MAN. I did a search for my band on AIU, and we are EVERYWHERE.... and so are our tracks.... ALL OF THEM! Would this bother me otherwise? Probably not. But considering the burned bread on AIU and American Idol's poopy reputation, I am upset. We actually have 12 online radio spins on one of our songs... what this means TO ME? I have no idea.... what I am supposed to be balancing out of this agreement? (payment, ect.) I am not seeing. I don't remember signing any contracts allowing them to do this. *very upset*SPELLBOX, GAINESVILLE, FLORIDA
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Thanks for the heads-up.
Unfortuately, this kind of nonsense is not restricted to just the
American Idol franchise.
Caveat Emptor, indeed!
peace,
Dusty
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BTW: I have, since my last post, sent in a 'letter of demand' to be removed from that goofy Am. Idiol Underground, as they *did* have my album posted and all of the copyrighted songs therein, showing '12' spins. I replied to their 'support' @ email addy and also 'replied' to their original email I got on Firday, so they have two copies of my demand to be removed.
* I tried to click on a few of the songs to see if they would play, but they would not, at least, not on my 20th Century computer that lacks in plug-ins.
I will let you all know if this works out, or if I hear from them at all???
We are all in this together, you know, and Derek is doing all that he can to help us, I am certain of.
According to Derek, they cannot, without our Agreeing to it, play our songs, even though they may be listed, which can be just as bad.
A call to that guy Bill who duped Derek, may be in order, if Derek wouldn't mind.
Otherwise, I have my BLASTER loaded, and in the ready.
;-)
Be well.
Jason Leigh of Greywolf, the Band.
http://jasonleigh.org/greywolf1.htm
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I think people are just over-reacting to a very poorly written contract. It sounds like they hired a very bad lawyer, or perhaps wrote it themselves to save money. A contract like that would never hold up in court. I am not going to cancel my account, but I do think they should hire a real lawyer to write a meaningful contract.
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BTW: 'Sorry for the repeated posts by mistake, but one poster stated that we could 'delete' our account at the lower lefthand bottom. I could find no such way of deleting my album and Bio info anywhere on my Artist Bio page they set up, after just going there 2 minutes ago.
Therefore, sending them a 'Letter of Demand' to be removed may be our only recourse. I suggest you all doing so until Derek can get a handle on this for us, which I am sure that he and Bill are working at right now.
('Sorry for referring to the Am. Idiol guy 'Bob' as being you, Bill).
Later on, and keep the faith.
Jason
http://jasonleigh.org/greywolf1.htm
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Hi,
I have read all the above posts, and I agree that this American Idol thing looks like a scam. I also deleted my account, and I logged into the system from a different computer to ensure that the account was indeed deleted.
However, there is a problem that still exists and I am not sure what, if anything, anyone can do about it.
These folks have the album data on any submitted album. CD-Baby DID send them albums (for those of us who allowed it), so AI has them them stored somewhere on their system, and probably has backups.
Deleting your account may cancel it in their database for access, but that does not remove any files they have stored on their system, it simply removes the access to the database for the account holder or anyone searching the database. AI may still have the album data.
This means that if they are using the AI name as a cover and their real adgenda is to copy music and redistribute it, they've got everything they need-- they have the albums.
As for copyright, you ALWAYS have that, especially if you have registered with the Copyright Office. But, if you read the terms of copyright, this only means that you have a legal leg to stand on if YOU sue for infringement. Violation of copyright is a civil, not criminal case, so you have to take action against violators, there is no public prosecution system for it.
As I understand the laws, it is encumbant on the copyright owner to take action against the violator... a costly and time consuming process. Having a registered copyright is helpful in such cases, but not required. Still, for small copyright fee, it is good to register.
But, of course, you have to KNOW that your music is being used without your permission before you can take action, and that is hard to do! You'd have to look in every country and every store and listen to every album! And, if they decided to take parts of your music and sell it off as background music to a film, TV or Ad company, your music could show up there as well! If you were to try and do anything about it, it could turn into a real mess.
That said, AI is not the only risk. ANYONE who buys your album in any form can pull such a trick. How would you know?
The only difference is that with their insane agreement, AI is not only insinuating that they have something nefarious in mind (why else would the agreement be so convoluted?) but they are covering themselves by making it appear that you gave them permission.
You CAN waive your rights to sue for infringement, and this is where AI has gotten around the rules. However, the "agreement" with them may be non-binding -- and probably is because of the language and the way they have implemented it.
When I logged on to AI, I did not click on any "I Agree" button. I just wound up in the "request to pay $50" screen, which I ignored and went in to see what was posted.
I do not think that by logging into an account they can claim you have agreed to anything. But they have made this all so questionable and shady that I would not be surprised at any trick they tried to pull.
So I guess the problem I am concerned with here is what, if anything, can anyone do to get the album data files away from these people because it appears that they have something in mind besides rotation. THAT's the real issue because this is the "goods" they were probably looking for in the first place.
There are always risks in any intellectual property situation, this is just one of them, In my case with AI, I saw that my album was miscategorized and one of the tracks from my album had been played only 7 times, and it was voted so low, I imagine no one likes my music anyway! Tis is probably a great discouragement from copying!
Hopefully, this doesn't happen to the rest of you!
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When I received the e-mail from AIU and read over the agreement red flags were blazing from the beginning until the end of it. I was going to contact the company with questions that I had about the agreement. I am happy that I did not log in and I am grateful for the e-mail sent by CD baby staff informing members of the concerns that other members were having. The comments of the CDbaby members just confirmed my original feelings about AIU customer agreement. I noticed that even though I did not log in, I went to the site and noticed that AIU stills has my information on their site with one of my songs. I noticed that on the e-mail sent out by AIU that at the bottom of the e-mail that provided us with our user name and password that it indicates that our music is already in rotations. The e-mail went on to indicate that AIU selected which songs they like out of the songs provided when they were originally forwarded in July. This is a quote from the e-mail sent by AIU “There are certain rights we need in order to promote your music effectively, and even though you have received a free trial account, these terms still apply to you. By logging into your account, you are agreeing to these terms.” So even if you have not logged in please e-mail and asked for your information to be removed. I have e-mailed the company with my concerns and asked for immediate removal of my material. I also asked them to reply and inform me of the outcome and to indicate if further action was required for removal. I will post their reply when I receive it.
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Decided to have some fun w/ my cancellation email;
---FROM EMAIL---
After review of your service times, I have decided not to participate in your service. There are far too many music services that promote artists with artist rights in mind, and the contract you have presented is poorly thought out with regard to protecting artist rights.
To state it clearly, I do not agree to the terms of the AIU service, and I require that my account be deleted and all Deep Sonic digital materials submitted by Deep Sonic (and/or via CDbaby) be deleted and removed from any and all American Idol Underground services, distribution, or and/or affiliates.
Failure to comply with this demand, and/or distributing my music, constitutes a violation of my rights as the copyright owner of my material as defined by U.S.law. If you do not remove my material from your service by November 1st, 2005 at 5PM ET, then you agree to pay $500 a day for licensed usage of my digital material, whether distributed or not, from that day forward. Failure to respond to this email by November 1st, with a statement indicating that my account and materials have been deleted, constitutes a legally binding agreement with the daily usage fees listed above. Upon said date of agreement, usage fees shall be calculated at the end of each month, and payment is due within 30 days of the incurred usage fees, after which a 1% monthly surcharge applies for late payments.
Thank you for your time. I look forward to hearing from you.
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"by Deep Sonic on Sunday October 30 2005 @ 10:09AM PST [ reply | parent ]
Decided to have some fun w/ my cancellation email;..."
Wow, Deep Sonic, I want YOUR lawyers! Nice job, and thanks for sharing it.
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Dear Derek,
Thank you so much for your concern with regards to the hook that website American Idol Underground is trying to put on us. I appreciate you guys taking the time to look after us.
I have not even opened the email but I take your word and wont even bother with it. I do not wish to be with such people.
Once again thaks a million to you and the rest of the staff at CD Baby.
Juan Miguel
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I agree with the last comment from Dave (posted 9:27am) that this is a poorly written contract by an amateur lawyer. In section 5: Ownership - it clearly states that you (the artist) retain all copyrights to the submitted works.
"all right, title and interest in and to the Submitted Content shall remain your property"
Also in section 1: Authorization - "Subject to the terms of this Agreement, you hereby grant to us and our licensees the non-exclusive right throughout the universe and in perpetuity to"
Simply means that you are granting them a non-execlusive licence to use your works, your name and the titles on their website and in all their promotions throughout the world in all media formats for the life of the copyright (which is 50 years after you die) This is a standard independant contract for licencing material, just worded badly.
Personally i don't think anyone has anything to worry about, it is non-execlusive so you are free to promote, licence, distribute, publish your music to other sources. You retain all your rights to the song, recorded works, titles and likeness. Over my years of being involved in the music industry i have seen many contract much worse that this. (asking the artist to sign all copyrights to the publisher in perpetuity - so you have no further claim to the recorded work, song or title).
As to charging you for further promotion of the song that is nothing new - there are lots of companies doing this now, my advice is just don't pay for it.
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Jeez guys, relax already. "Non-exclusive" means just that. Few artists (including yours truly) fully understand legalese. If you are uncomfortable with any contract, get a lawyer for chrissakes. If you can't afford one, you can either A) Take your chances or B) Opt out. But it's your music and your responsibility to be a good steward and promoter of it.
Does anyone here not realize that artists, by nature, often find themselves swimming with sharks? Take care, and read everything very carefully. When in doubt, contact the powers that be. I did. And I have adjusted accordingly.
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I checked my inbox.. all I seem to have is the initial email from bob saying "hey we received your music traxx from CD baby, thanxx", but I don't think I ever received a contract email-- they put my tracks up, but I don't think I signed any contract.. at this point, it just seems like I'm getting some free promotion-- I guess I'll remove myself from it if I suddenly get really big and my career blows up-- Here's the one email I seem to have received from them:
Dear CD Baby Artist,
Thank you for submitting your music to American Idol Underground! We appreciate the groundswell of support and positive comments we have received about this service, and everyone here is excited to have your music playing when we launch in October.
At this time, we have received your music from CD Baby and we are in the process of getting it into our system and ready for airplay in October. You can expect to hear from us in the next few weeks with instructions on how to access the account we are creating for you at www.idolunderground.com. In the meantime, if you have any questions, please feel free to email us at cdbaby@idolunderground.com.
In appreciation of your support, I want to extend an invitation for you to attend the American Idol Underground launch party in Hollywood (Los Angeles, California) on October 18th, 2005, at 7:30pm. Admission is free and space is limited, so the first fifty people that send an RSVP to cdbaby@idolunderground.com with your name, email, and physical address will receive an invitation for yourself plus one.
Again, thanks for being a part of American Idol Underground and we look forward to helping you get your music heard!
Sincerely,
Bob Buch
Co-Founder, COO (& CD Baby Artist)
Fluid Audio Networks
5813-A Uplander Way
Culver City, CA 90230
bbuch@fluidaudio.com
P.S. If you are mistakenly receiving this email or want to be removed from this list, please send an email with “unsubscribe” in the subject line to cdbaby@idolunderground.com requesting to be removed.
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Well, this did it for me.
I'd already hemmed and hahed over the contract, not understanding much of the legalese, and the fact that they'd chosen a song I wouldn't normally have chosen for rotation, and then want $50 to put the one you want into rotation began to ring alarm bells.
After reading this, I've gone and cancelled my account, and sent them an email stating that I do not wish to comply with their contract. I have also asked them to email me back stating that they have read and understood my email.
http://www.cdbaby.com/Sinistrals
http://sinistrals.stevedix.de/
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A note to those deleting your account. If you read the below which is from the AIU site, its clearly states that you are deleting YOUR LOGIN. Not your music. They will continue to use your music, you lose your right to login and check your ratings or have access to your uploaded songs. THEY DONT LOSE the ability, you do.
Personally, Derek, I am disappointed. I recomment CDBaby to ALL of my studio customers. This has left a sour taste in my mouth. Yes, I am kicking myself for becoming complacent here. Over the last 2 years and 2 cds I apparently obtained trust in you and your company with my music. So when I email you and ask you if "this thing is safe" or "Is this a realy company asking for my music" and you say yes, I believe you. And you KNOW that musicians trust you. Live and learn I guess. I do know that I will be contemplating long and hard on whether or not CDBaby will represent me in the future.
Not happy,
Andrew Wheeler
WiseMinds Recording Studios
Haunted By Angels
KapEye
How can I delete my account?
Should you choose to remove your music from AIU, you may do so by account by selecting the "Delete My Account" link at the bottom of your account page. Once your account has been deleted, you will not be able to recover any rating information or uploaded songs.
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Andy - you need to think for yourself.
You can't just "let Derek figure it out for me" or "let Mark Easley figure it out for me". (Mark is the guy that wrote this post, above.)
Neither one is correct.
- Derek
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while i agree that the contract is ambiguous, some of you misunderstood the page asking for %0. & credit card info. the 1 digital song that they picked to rotate is free. the $50 is if you want to add more of your originals to the rotation. i have not filled out the credit card info & do not intend to but am still in the rotation for the broadcasting rotation of the free song. now i'm not sure how this can be of any more risk than having our songs on any of the other digital distributions thru CDBaby, since anyone can download any of our originals on these sites & make their own "mimicked" versions or steal whatever ideas from them or use them without our knowledge. it's all a risk, no matter how you cut it.
mary
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Interesting, upon logging in to AIU curiouse to see which song they randomly put into rotation. I was perplexed to find that they listed The Album title "Lost In The Hardwoods" which exist as the album title only and it was listed as song number eight from an album that only has seven songs.
So Its interesting that a song that does not exist has recieved six spins and has been givin a rating!
Sound pretty bogus to me...
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On a lighter note, I knew it was fake when one of the best songs on our album only got a 2.6 rating ;D
Not only business bastards, but they have a tin ears, too! lol
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Hello Derek:
I do not like "Tasty Audio's" contract either. It is also onesided and benefits them and locks us in indefinitely.
I would suggest that everyone read this contract carefully before signing their application.
Thanks.
Norma
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How can I delete my music from the American Idol Underground data base without login in???
For any help I would be very thankful,
thanks in advance,
Kai!
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Hello American Idel Underground,
Today I received the following email from Derek at CD Baby about your website, which I established an accouint on upon Derek's recommendation.
This email is very disturbing to me, and after reading the discussion thread at CD Baby.
I just visited your site to verify that you have my music, which I found.
I want my account with American Idol Underground terminated immediately. Whatever permission I may have inadvertently provided to you about license to use any of my music, it is hereby by withdrawn, in full, and without reservation.
Thank you for attending to this matter, and please notify me by return email when the account has been closed, and my music files have been deleted from your computers.
Lolene
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I just notified all the music mags in my area. Maybe we can keep other people from falling into this trap.
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P.S. Still no new password.
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TO CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT AT IDOL
go to your "My Account" section, at the bottom of the screen,
theres a link on the right called "Delete My Account".
You can then click that, verify your password and your account
should be deleted. There is no confirmation screen, it just
randomly says you are not logged in or your session has
expired.
Do a quick search for your band to make sure you're not there
anymore, and that should sort out everything.
I got duped too, but I am now deleted from their site.
All the best guys,
-Mel
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Mel - are you certain that canceling your account REALLY canceled you account? Or did it just delete your access to your information?
Gene
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Gotta say, this Cdbaby company is seeming less and less effective. The independence is nice, until the company grows SO large, that all independence is lost.
Derek got people involved in this from the beginning, and his association with the owners and operators of this scam AIU crap is VERY dubious.
On another note, I have noticed cdbaby becoming downright lacadazical, about OTHER digital distribution outlets. I have been waiting more than 5 months to be listed on Itunes, and have email cdbaby EVERY WEEK since the insane "wait three months" policy. Did my cd even ever make it to Itunes? Or am I gonna find out in another 3 months that they never received it, and have to wait ANOTHER 3 months?
Cdbaby, dropping the ball completely.
Derek, I agree, you were quite forward about not being in the middle of this, yet you got SO MANY people involved. Seems like a racket to me. And cdbaby is slowly seeming the same.
Please Prove me wrong.
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Computo -
Your album was sent to iTunes on June 20, 2005. That's clearly shown in your account.
(1) You read one person's opinion saying American Idol Underground is stealing your copyrights, and you believed it.
(2) You're upset that Apple takes a long time to add new albums, and sometimes "loses" them? So are we. It sucks. In fact I had to hire two full-time people this year to do nothing but nag the digital retailers we work with. (FULL-TIME!) Two people nag them every single day, trying to get problems fixed. Sometimes they get fixed. So - yes it sucks for you and it sucks for us.
But I think it's wrong to call CD Baby a sham because you don't like what two other companies are doing.
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"Derek got people involved in this from the beginning"
And if Derek offered you the opportunity to jump off a very tall building would you? No, I suspect not. I imagine you would assess the risk for yourself and make a call based on your own judgement. There was no gun to anyones head forcing them to do anything relating to this or any other opportunity presented by CDBABY. I think it's about taking personal responsibility, not blame.
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Also, Derek, It leaves a bad taste in my mouth, for cdbaby to dupe people into this deal, without properly notifying us of the fact that NO contract was available for those artists signing up.
Not everyone here went to Berklee, like you and I, and it stinks of bad music business when you go, and get SO MANY people mixed up with these Huck-sters.
Just seems that the same education that I got at Berklee was easily enough to know that this contract was a scam...why couldnt you tell from the beginning? If these guys are your friends, why would you let them convince you to screw over all of your customers? Surely, NOW, you can see that these people have hurt your reputation, for their benefit...a tainted, and distorted benefit, at that.
Why dont you publicly rebuke this bs, and cleanse yourself of these criminals? Why dont you publicly announce their deception and shame them out of business?
If you have any interest in salvaging your reputation with the cdbaby community, and the music community, then you will do everything in your power to SHAME THIS SCUM, or else you will show us all that you are involved.
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Computo -
In July we said, "There is a new company starting that we can send your music to, if you'd like." There was no contract, then. It didn't exist.
We sent them your music a favor to those who asked us to. They didn't pay us to tell you. You didn't pay us to send them your music.
We were clear we had no involvement with them whatsover, and that you were on your own after we sent them your music.
In October they wrote a contract that you don't like.
Now you are accusing me of some kind of scam - as if I should have predicted what every other company might be doing in the future, and whether you'd approve.
You're trying to dump your anger on me for something you did. You're a big boy. You make your own decisions.
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Agreed, Derek.
Computo –
Simply having an affiliation with a great group of individuals like CDBaby does not preclude you from taking responsibility for your own decisions, just like have a Berkeley Education obviously didn’t guarantee you good grammar or an intuitive business sense.
If you wanted to see a contract before granting permission for your music to be sent, you should have asked for one. Wouldn’t it be awful if CDBaby decided not to pursue seemingly valuable opportunities for all of us in the future for fear that one or two people might not be smart enough to think things through for themselves.
Clearly the “no harm no foul” rule should apply here, and if at some point down the line “harm” does come to you as a result of this incident, the “foul” is as much yours as anyone’s.
Have you forgotten already in only a few short hours that it was Derek who alerted you about this post in the first place? Wouldn't it be in all of our best interest if we let him spend his time helping us make more money, instead of wasting several hours on a Sunday defending himself from ridiculous allegations? I think so.
On a related note, after forwarding a similar letter to the one drafted by Steven McBride and his legal team, I received the following response from AIU.
___________
Dear CD Baby Artist,
It has come to our attention that certain aspects of the American Idol Underground artist agreement may be objectionable. In drafting the agreement, all efforts were made to provide maximum protection for you, the artist. However, we acknowledge that there are aspects of the agreement needing modification or clarification. As such, within 72 hours we will be sending you a revised agreement that we are confident you will find more acceptable. One such change will be that you will be able to cancel the agreement at any time, so even if you have already agreed to it, you can get out of it whenever you want.
American Idol Underground represents an unprecedented opportunity for you to get your music heard. As such, on behalf of the entire AIU team, we look forward to working with you.
Sincerely,
Justin Beckett, American Idol Underground Founder
Bob Buch, American Idol Underground Co-founder
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The point I was trying to make wasnt, "I blame derek for not holding my hand." When I read that contract, (the day you sent it) I was quite taken aback, and refused to get involved any further.
So, dont think you were notifying me of anything, because I already knew about it.
On top of that, there still has been no public rebuke from Derek, that the attempt to sucker the cdbaby community was wrong, or potentially criminal. telling all of us, doesnt qualify as a public rebuke, more like a guilty conscience.
To me, "materials that are similar and/or identical to any item of Submitted Content." screams fraud, and I would think that most Performing rights people would agree that this is nothing short of theft.
Dont take it wrong, Derek, I like cdbaby, saving my personal bad experiences. but as I said, Not everyone here knows to watch for these types of contract dealings. I knew, and thats why I never got involved. But even in the face of proof, there are people here who would flake this off as a standard risk that people take when trying to sell their music. Just shows how good-hearted musicians can be, and how willing the business men are, to take advantage of that.
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Computo,
Just stop trying to blame everyone and let it go. You are your own responsibility. So what you didn't like where this went...big deal. Derek didn't send you the contract or anything. He specifically stated that CDBaby would NOT be involved, so take personal responsibility for your actions. In other words, suck it up.
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as I mentioned, I am fully responsible for my own actions. I am fully aware that it is my job to watch my ass. I did, and I am.
I am just asking Derek to publicly rebuke this company, and his so-called friends. Contracts dont get written by mistake, as AIU would like to infer. This was obviously a concerted effort, and the CDBABY community noticed and informed itself.
Derek got involved AFTER this had been exposed.
So I leave it to Derek to show us that he is in NO WAY involved. All Ive seen so far, is him distancing himself, trying to abslove himself of any responsibility. Just makes me question other seemingly ineffective arms of cdbaby.
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>> I leave it to Derek to show us that he is in NO WAY involved
I leave it to Computo to show us that he is in NO WAY a Panda bear.
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I canceled it for now and deleted my music. I should have read it closer before logging in but this way, if they decide to change their system, I will take a closer look for now... I'm going on the cautious side.
I too am frustrated with how many months it takes to get music listed on sites. And if I email, I'm told to just be patient. I guess the first CD took a year, so I've still got a few more months to go before I reach that point. It would really be nice to know more than just to be told "be patient".
I do like what cdbaby does, just think the distribution area could be "improved".
Don
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| by
on Sunday October 30 2005 @ 12:39PM PST [ reply | parent ] |
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I personally don't think there is too much to worry about here and none of this would stand up in court.As for American Idol setting up this website as a cover to actually "steal songs from the poor little indy artists" is paranoid thinking,to say the least, I think, and could they not do this anyway by downloading any of these songs elsewhere and ripping us all off that way? Derek and company have provided us all with a great service for years and some of you seem to be taking on a "Derek as camp counselor" and "what do we do now, boss?" kind of panicky edge that tells me maybe you take a little break and go play some songs. BTW, they can have the songs I submitted. I'm sick to death of 'em -- peace--alan garr
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Man, I just can't _believe_ they put the whole damn album up on their site?! Why would anybody buy my album from iTunes if they can just capture it from AIU. I did NOT give AIU permission to do this.
Derek, I understand your side of it. You got scammed, we got scammed. But in the future I would really like to see contract terms from folks before you send my music to them.
Thanks,
Kevin
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I think that as an independent artist, it's pretty hard not to get screwed in general. How many of us have done shows at clubs where we've brought in 50 people, and the club will end up paying us like $1 or $2 per person, when they themselves end up making approximately $20 per person (door fees, drink minimums, etc)? It's just a lame world overall, and right now, I'm playing one of the world's biggest violins. Anyway, I just got a new email from them:
Dear CD Baby Artist,
It has come to our attention that certain aspects of the American Idol Underground artist agreement may be objectionable. In drafting the agreement, all efforts were made to provide maximum protection for you, the artist. However, we acknowledge that there are aspects of the agreement needing modification or clarification. As such, within 72 hours we will be sending you a revised agreement that we are confident you will find more acceptable. One such change will be that you will be able to cancel the agreement at any time, so even if you have already agreed to it, you can get out of it whenever you want.
American Idol Underground represents an unprecedented opportunity for you to get your music heard. As such, on behalf of the entire AIU team, we look forward to working with you.
Sincerely,
Justin Beckett, American Idol Underground Founder
Bob Buch, American Idol Underground Co-founder
If you are mistakenly receiving this email or want to be removed from this list, please send an email with “unsubscribe” in the subject line to cdbaby@idolunderground.com requesting to be removed.
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Hi Derek,
I replied to your email with this but I thought it was also worth sharing with the thread.
I just checked the AIU site. All of my tracks from the CD I sell through you are up on the AIU site, in their entirety. There's no excerpts, no digital distribution fee, nothing like I've come to expect from a digital distribution site. It's all up there. There's no reason for someone to buy any of my tracks via iTunes or Rhapsody if they can just capture it from AIU.
Derek, I'm not a sue-monkey screaming for your head. I understand your side of it. You got scammed, we got scammed. In the future I would really like to see contract terms from folks before I give you my consent to send my music to them.
In the meantime, is it possible for you to call your friend at AIU and ask him to remove all CDBaby accounts from AIU?
This will all pass, big guy. Keep your chin up and keep doing all the good work you've been doing for us. I for one really appreciate it.
Thanks,
Kevin
kevin@thenettles.com
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Here is a great example of marketing to a company (AIU to CDBaby) for the use of a mailing list and misrepresentation by ommiting certain info (sample contracts) to CDBaby before hand. It is also a signal to CDBaby how much it's members believe in and trust this group, which I think is extraordinary and a wonderful compliment to Derek and his staff, but as so, it can also be a disaster if information is passed onto members that has not thoroughly been researched and screened. ALL info should be submitted to CDBaby member staff BEFORE it is sent to CDBaby's mailing list to avoid this type of thing in the future. If a company cannot provide it, as is the case here, then (company - AIU) don't submit and (CDBaby) don't pass it on. Of course, it is also a wonderful thing that members can post info they find (as CDBaby can't do all the work for us!) and Derek and his staff read and send out info as necessary. I only wish more organizations would do this. Not everything can be 100% perfect, but it is nice that it seems to work here most of the time! Good job to CDBaby, it's members and all those who take the time to share info here. I, for one, appreciate it a million times over!!
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Vicki - while I agree with you, I need to make this clear:
When I told everyone about American Idol Underground last July, they did not exist yet, and there was no contract yet. It had not been written yet.
I only asked if you wanted us to send your music to this new start-up. I made it clear we had no affiliation with them.
We sent them the music from the people who asked us to do so, and that was the end of our involvement with this.
Then 4 months later (last week) they wrote and presented this contract to everyone.
As soon as I heard, I emailed everyone about it (at 7am on a Sunday morning).
I DO watch out for you guys.
- Derek
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Jeez, I'm quite the little blog-monkey today, aren't I?
But while I was writing the previous entry, my spam filter caught the following email from AIU. Read it and chill for a couple of days:
From: American Idol Underground
To:
Reply-To: American Idol Underground
Subject: Artist Agreement
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:38:08 -0700
Dear CD Baby Artist,
It has come to our attention that certain aspects of the American Idol Underground artist agreement may be objectionable. In drafting the agreement, all efforts were made to provide maximum protection for you, the artist. However, we acknowledge that there are aspects of the agreement needing modification or clarification. As such, within 72 hours we will be sending you a revised agreement that we are confident you will find more acceptable. One such change will be that you will be able to cancel the agreement at any time, so even if you have already agreed to it, you can get out of it whenever you want.
American Idol Underground represents an unprecedented opportunity for you to get your music heard. As such, on behalf of the entire AIU team, we look forward to working with you.
Sincerely,
Justin Beckett, American Idol Underground Founder
Bob Buch, American Idol Underground Co-founder
If you are mistakenly receiving this email or want to be removed from this list, please send an email with “unsubscribe” in the subject line to cdbaby@idolunderground.com requesting to be removed.
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Hello:
Take me out of that website called American Idol Underground.
Thank You,
Dr. J. Gardner
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dc baby thank you for the info"but it came to
late, although i did not see aiu page, ON MY
BEHALF WILL YOU' CD BABY" THAT IS,TAKE MY MUSIC
OFF OF AMERICAN IDOL LIST' SINCE IT WAS YOU WHO
PUT IT THERE,
THANK YOU.
CLARENCE DANIELS.
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Why should CD Baby be responsible for removing your music when it was you who gave them permission to submit it?
If you were too lazy to think for yourself and do your homework back when the opportunity was offered to you, why does that mean that you are entitled to continue to be too lazy to fix the situation you got yourself into?
There have been countless posts above regarding how to remove yourself from AIU. It takes two minutes. You people need to start thinking (and acting) for yourselves!
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EVERYONE RELAX!!!!!
Derek has done nothing over the years but try hard to bring opportunities to us and make it easier and easier for us to have a chance as independent artists. I think it great that a few posts on a messageboard can get the head of a major company like CDBaby to reply personally...on a SUNDAY!!
Do you think some VP or higher up from BMG or other major music industry co. would respond to your concerns on a messageboard thread??
Everyone needs to take a deep breath, cancel your AIU account if you like or wait and see what they change now that it's been brought to their attention... I'm not defending them, just Derek and CDBaby.
DEREK, thanks for everything you do for all of us whom would not likely ever have had anywhere to cell our CDs or ever have a chance to place our music with ITUNES, etc. You are not unappreciated!
Jerry Wade
Table Top Poets
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I received an e-mail from AIU indicating that they were going to revise the contract due to concerns. The following statement was issued:
It has come to our attention that certain aspects of the American Idol Underground artist agreement may be objectionable. In drafting the agreement, all efforts were made to provide maximum protection for you, the artist. However, we acknowledge that there are aspects of the agreement needing modification or clarification. As such, within 72 hours we will be sending you a revised agreement that we are confident you will find more acceptable. One such change will be that you will be able to cancel the agreement at any time, so even if you have already agreed to it, you can get out of it whenever you want".
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Re: Derek's email expressing 'dissappointment'.
I dissagree with Dereks take on this controversial
contract and the disscussion surrounding it. Its a
testament to all CD Baby artists' willingness to take
responsibility that conversation is even happening.
People ARE by this very process forcing a hand that is
more openly favorable to the artists. They are putting
the heat on THEM and that is itself a part of the process
of negotiating. We yell outrage and walk away, then
maybe if a compromise is offered, we return, smile in
hand.
We are intelligent Derek you are correct and as a result
of this people DO appear to be looking and learning
about these contract issues. Not everyone is as familiar
with the biz side of music as you sir but you more than
anyone should always be appreciative of our
willingness to take responsibility and learn it
nonetheless.
You need not feel one shred of 'dissappointment' only
pride. So please do what you always do, offer
guidance, support , and a wary eye of THE MAN.
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Someone else mentioned it above too. Anyone else think it's funny that they would claim to randomly pick a song for rotation instead of hand picking a better one, which would be better for the quality of their product? Altrnatively, if they purposely chose a not-so-strong song, we might be duped into paying 50 bucks for each song we WANTED played as a representative track. The song they picked is not representative of the album and is not the song I would want played 200 times in rotation to promote myself. It's either lazy bad business or it's crooked. It felt wrong to me, even before I got the heads up from Derek. Also, do we get royalty payments every time a song is played in rotation?
I agree that we are all big boys and girls and that Derek made it clear about his role in this.
However, Derek, the backbone of YOUR buisiness is fostering relationships and trust, which you have done. This is an example of the downside of that and the responsibility that comes with it. You can't have it both ways. You want us to trust you, as it is good for your business? Or should I suspect that you may not have done your homework and have a little less trust in the things you send us, which is bad for your business? Don't get defensive, just hear it, and figure out which way you want it. Of course we have to take responsibility as independent artists, but you exist because we need somebody to help us weed out the crap. You said it was a favor, but it may not have been in hind site, as it was uninformed (no contract) other than the fact that you knew them, so it came down to us trusting you.
I am happy to be involved with CD baby and have decided for my first CD that I would just "get it out there", which means maybe taking a few risks and making a few mistakes.
It's an ongoing education.
Thanks, Derek.
Trevor Day
www.trevorday.com
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I second and third the emotion that we all need to take
responsibility for what we agree to or don't agree to, and not put
it all on Daddy Derek or CD Baby. They infom us of
opportunities to get exposure for our music, but they don't twist
our arms to take advantage of them, and when Derek initially
sent out the AIU email back in July we could have easily asked
what the contract terms were. He would have said he didn't
know of any, and we could have said forget it. If you didn't do
your homework, then you can't blame Derek. I think we all know
that he and CD Baby have our best interests as independent
musicians at heart, and are not (sorry but I have to laugh here),
involved themselves with this AIU "scam," if it is indeed a scam.
In checking out their site and trying to get a handle on their
(AIU's) angle, the only thing that appears to be scam-like in their
operation is that they choose a song to put into rotation on one
of their "stations," and then want you to pay for other tunes to
be added. Well they happened to choose the deepest cut from
my album, and the one I would be least likely to choose myself.
My bad luck? I don't think so. I read similar things from a few
other artists posting here (even one who said they put up a non-
existent tune from his album), so I'm thinking that what they are
trying to do is get us to each pony up $50 per song. If you do
the math that comes to a nice sum of $$$ if a lot of artists go
for it. So... they choose the tune from your album that you
aren't going to pay for, just to get you going. Am I too cynical?
Are the tunes just randomly chosen or is there a more calculated
plan involved? Well, as someone said, it is business, after all,
and these guys are out to make a buck like everyone else.
Final conlusion: if it smells bad, just get out, and stop dumping
on Derek. Think for yourselves.
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derek - thank you for everything you do. There was some overreaction here (including by me!) but upon closer inspection of the AIU contract it is just not something I want to be involved with....
I've never received an email from AIU, but my music is on their site. How do I cancel with them?
Thanks,
Ric Swanson
OUR RELIGION MUSIC
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All these posts remind me of a Yahoo Message Board
political rant!
My dear CDBaby members,
I was the members, NOT DEREK, who SIGNED up for this.
All he did was promulgate the information. It is YOU who
needs to read the contract and determine if it is in your
best interests to sign.
I find it ironic that everybody has their panties in a bunch
over this but if BMG or Sony came and waived the same
contract in your face with a $100,000 advance, 99% of
CDBaby members would trample over each other to sign it!
Hey, welcome to the music business where these types of
contracts are ubiquitous. That's why there are
entertainment lawyers who can decipher these contracts for
you. Remember the old adage....The large print giveth...the
small print taketh away.
Peace
Lance McCollum
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Firstly, I take full responsibility for not reading
the contract. In this digital world of "click here
to accept" I often go on without reading things.
I never intended to make Derek feel like he or
cdbaby should take any responsibility for this.
Apologies all around for the email debacle,
but I respectfully request that you please stop
sending me emails about this. I made the
decision to get out of AIU because I don't have
time to deal with what AIU really means and I
don't want to take any more time right now to
try figuring it out (i.e. reading the contract) -- no
other reason. cdbaby has made my music
available via many digital sources and for now
that's enough for me.
Thanks Derek - and keep on fighting the good
fight.
Ingrid
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this is what i just got.
Dear CD Baby Artist,
It has come to our attention that certain aspects of the American Idol Underground artist agreement may be objectionable. In drafting the agreement, all efforts were made to provide maximum protection for you, the artist. However, we acknowledge that there are aspects of the agreement needing modification or clarification. As such, within 72 hours we will be sending you a revised agreement that we are confident you will find more acceptable. One such change will be that you will be able to cancel the agreement at any time, so even if you have already agreed to it, you can get out of it whenever you want.
American Idol Underground represents an unprecedented opportunity for you to get your music heard. As such, on behalf of the entire AIU team, we look forward to working with you.
Sincerely,
Justin Beckett, American Idol Underground Founder
Bob Buch, American Idol Underground Co-founder
If you are mistakenly receiving this email or want to be removed from this list, please send an email with “unsubscribe” in the subject line to cdbaby@idolunderground.com requesting to be removed.
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What!? Derek Sivers doesn't like coffee?! I quit. :)
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Hi all,
What fascinating reading this has all been!
First - I think CD Baby offers a great service for the price. And, I think Derek is a nice guy who means very well. Maybe I am nuts, but, there it is.
Second - Derek was clear in his July e-mail about the AIU offering. I don't think anyone can question that. Yes, I had a tendency to trust that everything would turn out fine, after all, Derek is a nice guy, and, in my experience at least, CD-Baby does deliver.
Third - AIU is at fault here. I am sure everyone agrees that there is something odd about their approach. At best, it is clumsy and poor contract writing, at worst, it is arrogance and an attempt at a scam.
Let's think about this.
Here is a company who claims that by logging into a Web account you automatically agree to terms and agreements-- which admittedly you can see without logging in.
The CATCH is that to DENY the terms and agreements, you have to ACCEPT them in the first place by logging in! I really have to wonder about the person who came up with that approach!
I have been a Webmaster for 12 years and have not seen such an attempt in that time, even on some of the most notorious phishing sites. I asked a friend who is a lawyer about this AIU thing, and her response was "WHAT? It is doubtful that such an agreement would hold up in court!"
That said, the second highly questionable activity is the posting of entire albums on the AIU site where ANYONE can grab them. Isn't that just a little bit sloppy? That's AIU at fault, NOT CD-Baby.
On the other hand, if they are going to play songs, well, they sort of HAVE to play the entire SONG, don't they? So w=one can't complain about that really. I don't think a snippet of a song makes for a good playlist.
So I think the error here was to post ALL the songs of the album where ANYONE could get them. If they had posted them ONLY in the artist's secure area so the aritst could easily sign one of them up for a rotation, that would be fine. But as far as the WORLD is concerned, only the one or two (or however many) songs that the ARTIST allowed would be in rotation.
They should have posted the ONE song only. I don't know if they have to tell the artist WHICH song they chose. I mean, they are doing it for free after all! When the aritst pays, then the artist gets to choose. That seems fair.
If you send an album to a radio station, don't they play the track they like, regardless of what the artist prefers? I don't know, I haven't had the fortune of a radio play. I suppose they could play the entire album, and then anyone could make a copy, if they knew it was playing. I have to admit, as a kid, I got a Judy Collins album off the radio once (I couldn't believe they played the whole thing!), and then I felt so guilty I went out and bought two of them to make up for it. But that's just me.
I think the solution would be for AIU to play ONE song only, and negotiate with the artist for additional songs to appear in rotation. Theoretically, an artist could put the entire album into rotation, assuming the artist would pay the costs.
I guess the point is that AIU was and is obviously in the business of getting $50 for a rotation per song. They made that pretty clear when the first page that comes up when you log in is the request to send them money-- gosh, and I would have thought it would be a contract or at least a Welcome sign! I'm for business and making money. AIU just did it in a very clumsy and tactless way.
Derek IS responsible for offering to help out all of us by letting us know that AIU was coming out. That is a matter of history, he actually did tell us. But...
Derek IS NOT responsible for what AIU does. AIU is responsible for that.
WE are responsible (not Derek) for the AIU issue and letting them know that we do or do not like the way they do business.
Derek is NOT obligated to take care of anyone unless they pay him a fee to do so and have a contract to the same end. I don't recall Derek offering a caretaking service at CD-Baby (at least, I can't find one).
For my part, I don't trust AIU, so I will not renew any agreement with them at all. There is a saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!" This will hardly matter to them considering the numbers of artists they are looking for (and may already have). But frankly, unless they REALLY win my confidence, I won't do business with them, even for free. (And I was thinking of buying rotation time with them-- not any more).
Let's be fair, we are ALL trying to make money. AIU is basically a playlist, right? We pay them to play the music in hopes that someone will like it and go buy some more, or the album. That's a nice idea. And they offered to run a song for 200 plays for free. That's a nicer idea.
But it is kind of strange to offer a nice freebie on one hand, and then have something, like that clumsy contract, in the other. Shows a lack of integerity to me. Or sloppiness.
Where they messed up was by basically forcing an unacceptable contract on folks, and that has caused an uproar.
I wonder if they have learned their lesson?
I wonder if we have?
Does this sum it up, or have I yet missed something?
Anyway, I don't think CD-Baby is bad, just got caught in an uproar caused by clumsiness on the part of AIU. But AIU-- sorry, I think I'll pass in future, and look at everything I see a bit more closely.
So I did get something for free after all-- a little wisdom, and that is priceless.
Guess I have to say thank you. huh?
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Wow, what a mess. I too am glad I don't have time to read my email, it's only after I got several emails from Derek that I decided to look a little closer. Derek, I did take your advice in that I read the contract myself instead of making a judgment based on what everyone else is saying. You have to do that because just like your music, the way you interpret things and what is acceptable to you varies from person to person.
That said, I do believe this contract is unfair, but not necessarily more unfair than other contracts I have seen. I auditioned for American Idol this year, and in their contract there is a clause saying that by signing it, you agree to be bound by future contracts without even knowing what they will say! The industry itself is all about money and screwing other people anyway--but that's for another day. Here are just a few points in the AIU contract that looked screwy to me:
-->They do say near the end that you retain all rights to your songs, however, that is exclusive of the rights you give them by signing the contract, which include basically every right under the sun forever, although the rights are non-exclusive, which means you can still work your stuff yourself and have other deals. Another of these rights include the ridiculous notion (that I have never heard of) of using "identical songs," which basically gives them the right to reproduce your songs without paying you royalties. Their excuse is that they will get millions of songs just like yours--so whose to say which ones are really yours? This kind of circular logic is definitely bullshit, and probably would not hold up in court. That's why we have copyrights; the copyright office won't issue you a copyright if there are songs previously copyrighted that are "identical" to yours.
-->The royalty rates they are paying for the use of the songs on digital media and phonorecords are very high--25% to 50%. However, this could just be to get your mouth watering, because, prior to this paragraph, they say they are not obligated by the agreement to pay royalties at all--uh, why would we sign it, then? So you can pay us only if you feel like it? If there was a store like that called Pay if You Want, do you think anyone would? They also further say they have the right to use your songs on phonorecords "royalty free." So, which is it, Mac, 25%-50% profit on our own music or at your whim? Sign me up...maybe?
CD Baby is an awesome site, and please don't beat up on Derek, because he is a cutie and a super-nice guy! He probably didn't know their contract was going to be like that when he sent the music to them, and he's doing a great job of informing us so we can make educated decisions in the aftermath. Rock on!
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I saw my songs on AIU and it was posted wrong; clicking on specific song titles played the wrong songs, etc., etc
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Apart from all the fuss re. the AIU's contract, I have also discovored a very serious security concern on the AIU site. I'm embarrased to say that I foolishly logged on to the site yesterday before receiving the warning emails from CDBaby. However, whilst I was checking out my entries and the site in general, I discovered an alarming bug (presumably) which all CDBaby artists, and any other artists, need to know. The secruty concern is this; ANYONE WHO HAS DOWNLOAD ACCELERATOR PLUS CAN DOWNLOAD ANY AND ALL MUSIC FOR FREE. If you right click on any music file and attempt to downloading is blocked; However, if you use Download Accelerator Plus left clicking a music file will bring up the AIU radio player. DAP users can choose a REGULAR download, which will result in the music file being streamed in the radio player, OR, an ACCELERATED download, which results in the ability to download the entire music file onto your local hard-drive. Thus, anyone who has DAP has access to the entire AUI catalogue for free. I advise everyone and anyone to take all of your music off AUI before all of our craetive genius is ripped off by all and sundry. Has anyone else seen this? I informed AUI immediately. The whole idea seems to be a huge mess.
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Tim, no I was unaware of that, but will remove our music from there, thank you.
We just recieved this email from AIU.....
Dear CD Baby Artist,
It has come to our attention that certain aspects of the American Idol Underground artist agreement may be objectionable. In drafting the agreement, all efforts were made to provide maximum protection for you, the artist. However, we acknowledge that there are aspects of the agreement needing modification or clarification. As such, within 72 hours we will be sending you a revised agreement that we are confident you will find more acceptable. One such change will be that you will be able to cancel the agreement at any time, so even if you have already agreed to it, you can get out of it whenever you want.
American Idol Underground represents an unprecedented opportunity for you to get your music heard. As such, on behalf of the entire AIU team, we look forward to working with you.
Sincerely,
Justin Beckett, American Idol Underground Founder
Bob Buch, American Idol Underground Co-founder
If you are mistakenly receiving this email or want to be removed from this list, please send an email with “unsubscribe” in the subject line to cdbaby@idolunderground.com requesting to be removed.
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Derek and all those working under the CdBaby umbrella ROCK!!!!!! They always HAVE and hopefully always WILL!!!!!! Whatever I decide to do or not do with AIU is between US!!! Peace, Aaron
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Open post to CD baby Community
Derek Sivers has impacted "Indie Artist's" and the digital distribution domain on the same level as the Wright Brothers did for flight, and Edison did for the light bulb. He is flat out a genius. To intimate any impropriety or responsibility on his part, or the part of CD Baby, in relation to AIU is a flagrant violation of common sense and decency. You can fluff it off to brown lipstick if you like, but this gentleman has afforded me opportunities to promote my music/band that I NEVER would have received on my own, for next to nothing! Talk about gnawing the hand that feeds you.
Bernie
The Woulds
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I have been extremely impressed by Derek's active response to this whole thing and can only imagine how torn up he has been over this. I'm also impressed by how involved so many CDbaby artists have been on this.
Despite the fact that a lot of people freaked out and some got way out of line, the communal participation in this post, the consciousness and passion of so many CDbaby musicians in something to be proud of.
It's easy to achieve a sense of community by everyone agreeing with each other, particularly over something negative. That is not what happened here. People helpfully informed each other how to delete their accounts. People agreed with those more pissed than them and tried to calm their anger, and people also offered unique perspectives.
Everyone can take a deep breath and relax. Even American idol underground has responded and no one is trapped and loosing their rights.
To Derek, and everyone at cdbaby:
Let's not remember this incident as simply a big mess, but valuable lesson and an example of the strength of community that can be created between independent musicians, and an honest enterprise, which respects their craft.
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A few things...
First off..Derek if you are going to reply to this..at least do me the justice of replying personally. Don't send me another form letter telling me not to freak out, etc.
Secondly, I represent 2 bands on CDBaby and must request that both of thier CDS be pulled from AIU. Reason? Users can download the CD for free thus destroying my digital sales. This was NEVER in the agreement. To offer a sample say 30 seconds to a minute is one thing, to offer the whole CD for free is another.
Before any of you throw out that "Derek is god" or "You should know what you are doing" thing, understand this.
It was from CDBaby that I learned NOT to trust some of these sites on the net with my music because users could just download the stream or record it while listening and basically get your CD for free. So when I get the email from Derek in July saying, "Hey, heres a opportunity" what was I supposed to think? The agreement was to submit 1, (ONE) song. Not the whole CD!! Let alone for me, 2 CDS.
I suggest if you are against this, do what I did. Email AIU and demand they remove your music in it's entirety and let them know that you do NOT agree to allow them to use your music or likeness in anyway. Set a deadline. If they do not comply, move forward with legal action as necessary. End of story.
Derek, while I am sure all of us agree that your enthusiasum is un-paralleled. And you do everything in your power to make this community stronger. This time though, you made a mistake. And that happens when people are trying really hard to help other people. You should have waited to get the whole picture before you jumped out there to tell everyone to sign up.
As for the coffee comment... The drug maker is just as responisble as the drug dealer.
Now lets fix this and move on.
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Andy - I think you are confusing two different things.
In July, I sent you an email asking if you wanted us to send your whole album to American Idol Underground. I made it very very clear that we had no affiliation, we are NOT the agent or distributor, that sending the music would be a favor, and would be the end of our involvement. The relationship would be directly between you and American Idol Underground and we'd have nothing to do with it. You asked us to do this for you.
In September, I sent you an email (seen here) - about using one song for promotional use in digital distribution. Now for this - we ARE the agent, we are the distributor. We do take full responsibility.
I think you are confusing the two. The post in July telling you about American Idol Underground had nothing to do with our "one promo song" added to digital distribution in September.
- Derek
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| by
on Monday October 31 2005 @ 08:15AM PST [ reply | parent ] |
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you're the one that needs to move on. Stop assuming that everything that comes to you will be good. Deal with it on your own and for Christssake, LET IT GO...
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Hi Folks,
This is Brian, the founder of the Just Plain Folks Music Organization.
There's a lot of buzz about all of this beyond just CD Baby and I am fielding dozens of emails already tonight and we have no other direct involvement with this in any way. I do want to say a couple things as an outside observer. It's just my personal opinion:
1. Derek gets hit up constantly by everyone on the planet who all want access to the CD Baby member base. He has a nearly impossible task of figuring out which opportunities to even pass on (because I am guessing he gets several every day) and also using instinct and judgement on whether it's better to share opportunities that might help all of you, or be hyper protective and never share anything, meaning you'd all miss out on a lot of cool things. It's a minefield for the most honest people in the world to deal with the crap that he must get (because we get the same types of pitches constantly for our own members attentions). Derek is already as choosy as anyone can be with what he endorses and even tells folks about. 99.9% of the time his suggestions, tips and opportunity notices are amazingly great. But it would be impossible (and totally unrealistic) for anyone to expect him to be able to predict what an initially honest company might try to do in the future. In this case, a company he told you about decided at a later date to institute a really stupid, poorly written (and in my sole opinion) unfair rip off contract. He couldn't predict that any better than anyone else. But he also isn't the person being asked to sign the contract, YOU are. You have to decide for yourself.
2. Though Derek hadn't done anything wrong, when a concern was brought to him, he stepped up instantly and sent a note to everyone so you had as much info as he does on what is going on. He also didn't edit or delete any negative comments, including some unreasonable attacks on him and CD Baby. Take a step back and think... it's only because he's an honest guy that this discussion is taking place. People out there in the music industry not only share info, but actually take advertising from people they KNOW are scam artists all the time. People are used to it. Look at the companies who run ads in most mainstream music magazines. Some are gigantic scam artists. The only reason there are people upset is because Derek is one of the few people who would never deceive you or lie to you or lead you down the wrong path for money or any other reason. I am guessing he was as surprised as anyone about the contract. And he immediately acted to let you all know there was a concern, even though it meant he was going to get some abuse for doing the right thing. (Funny how that works most of the time.. the honest people get hammered first). Don't confuse the messenger with the message or the message giver. He didn't write the contract. He didn't sign a contract on your behalf. He performed a friendly service to his member base in good faith. He's the good guy here, first in sharing an opportunity that seemed to have some positive merit for some, and more importantly, with a diligent and immediate follow up to notify you that some folks have concerns.
3. I actually disagree with Derek in that I think the contract is really really bad. People will get paranoid about anything, that is true, but I think it's bad contracts like this one that make people that way. To his credit, even though he feels like these guys are honest, he STILL made it a priority to get the discussion out in the open and on everyone's radar screen and he's succeeded. (I've gotten 3 more emails about it just since I started typing this). For me, any contract with language suggesting someone has any rights in perpetuity to your music, your name, your likeness or anything else for that matter which you can't revoke on demand is a terrible idea. Adding to it that they could transfer those rights to anyone else at anytime means that any horrible company could one day have rights to you and your work. Bad on every level. It's not a matter of whether THESE guys are honest and would never do something bad.. but what if they go belly up and some scam artist buys their company (as happens every day in this business sector). On top of that (and this is only my opinion) I can't see much tangible value in working with them in the first place for $50 dollars per song even WITHOUT the bad contract. Our JPF members are already complaining in large numbers that they don't even post a logical song or a requested song off your album. So what possible use is their site or their "free" offer to post a song? But that's a personal choice/opinion voiced by many of our members. Perhaps for you, it's a great thing.
4. Fortunately, because Derek wasted no time getting the word out, the proverbial shit hit the fan and people rebelled against AIU and they had no choice but to respond with the email that has been posted here above several times. That's another testament to Derek. How many people can cause enough of a commotion for a nearly instant about face on something like this? Not many. You guys have Derek and what he's built to thank for that. (That also is a testament to the angry people here.. they're also part of the solution as someone else pointed out). But without this community that Derek has built (and others like it), these types of problems would never even be out in the open, let alone addressed so quickly.
5. I don't know the people involved in AIU. I've known Derek since just about the time he and I both started dating back to early 1998. I am proud to see that Derek chose to openly and immediately address this issue and that he has come to this post over and over and communicated, directly and in person his position on all this. He hasn't edited the personal attacks on him. He hasn't dodged a question. He's taking the heat for something he didn't do. That's what leaders and honest people who actually give a shit and have nothing to hide do. The great thing about Derek is that he doesn't shrink from a problem or a mistake or even an imagined one like this, he attacks it head on and solves it. He did that here. On the other hand, I am VERY disappointed the primary people running AIU didn't also come here IMMEDIATELY themselves, just as I have done, and addressed each of you just as openly. To me, that is the most troubling thing they've about all this. We know they have to be aware of this discussion. Hell, it's not my site and I don't endorse these guys, but I got pulled into it because I care enough about OUR member to get involved personally. They know people are angry and confused and worried and they could have done a lot of PR good by coming here in person in the open, taken some heat and made people understand they aren't scam artists and they ARE going to fix all of this to everyone's satisfaction. I find the fact they didn't and instead sent out a form letter to everyone to be very very telling about who they are. To me, that's the biggest worry I have about them and why I will tell our 38,000 members to avoid their company until changes are implemented and folks have had a chance to examine the new contract and their new and improved business practices.
AIU should let 100% of the current members of their site out of ANY contractual obligations and also agree to immediately and permanently remove any music from anyone who doesn't give them express permission based on their new contract (and hopefully they'll stop using that stupid "log in and you agree to these terms" sort of contract (that hopefully wouldn't hold up in court anyway). If they have a legit reason to request rights to your music, they should have a clear and simple contract which needs to be signed by a real person granting them whatever legit rights they need. If they won't do that and try to use the "fine print" to get people to agree by mistake or accident or laziness or ignorance, then I suggest everyone avoid doing business with them. Charging for a service and having some guidelines is fine. If it's a worthwhile service, then they should make the entire process as out in the open as possible. They have nothing to hide right? When they try and slip something past people or trick people into signing a bad contract, then you have to question why they need to do that in the first place.
Be careful out there, and thanks again to Derek for leading by example.
Brian
Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
www.jpfolks.com
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RULE 1: THE MUSIC BUSINESS IS PRIMARILY A RIGHTS BUSINESS
RULE 2: THE THREE DIRTY WORDS "LIFE OF COPYRIGHT"
RULE 3: "The scientific term for any creature that runs from an aggressor is LUNCH"
RULE 4: LICENSE! LICENSE! LICENSE! NEVER SIGN ANY CONTRACT THAT DEMANDS LIFE OF COPYRIGHT! Why not?
Because a copyright is valuable and can be sold to the highest bidder. Every publisher in existence, large or small, wants to swindle you out of your copyright and then to sell it to the highest bidder TODAY or ASAP. You will not see a red cent nor a thank you letter. You will continue to recieve 50% of your agreed royalty - which is the LOWEST amount allowable by law. But you do not OWN your song/s anymore. So not only have you given away your copyright/ownership for LIFE + 75 years after your death, you have agreed to "accept" the mimimum commission perecentage allowable by law of 50%. At the moment of signing the "contract" you will normally see a clause that says "in consideration of the amount of $...." which is there to prove that something was given to you in exchange for your copyright.
The shocking and insulting truth here is that the "consideration" is not even ONE DOLLAR! What is the other legal tender in any country that has a face value? It is a POSTAGE STAMP. So the publishing contract does not come to you with a healthy cheque attached in payment for your copyright - it comes with the LOWEST denomination of POSTAGE STAMP that the publisher´s secretary can obtain from the local p/office. So, on receipt of your postage stamp and signature, the publisher has paid you the agreed amount (!) of 2 cents or whatever the measley pittance was - and is now the SOLE owner of your work for life and 75 years after your death. So you have given him your TAXI for free to add to his fleet of taxis and you have agreed to accept 50% of the taxi fares. You have also indemnified him against any claims of any nature and you have ALLOWED HIM TO SELL YOUR TAXI, along with all the others - TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER for which you will recieve - (close your eyes and what do you see?) - NOTHING.
If no-one wants to buy or hire your taxi, it will sit on the publishers ´lot´ until it rots - you will never be allowed to recover it. Say goodbye!
From the moment you sign that agreement, this entíty called your "publisher" then proceeds to LICENSE "his" copyrights to everyone that he can interest in doing so. So, your TAXI is now on hire to everyone else that might want to use it as well. They pay their "fare" in the blanket fee or agreed commission, which you will recieve your share of. But remember, the owner of the song is the publisher and he will sell it off as soon as he thinks the moment is right to do so.
Publishers rarely publish anything anyway, so don´t be confused by that. Its all a throwback to the days of Music Hall and the beginnings of tin pan alley. And the rip offs were invented then with the sole objective of DENUDING and STRIPPING songwriters of their most valuable asset:-their copyright!!!!!! As songwriters, it is our "ace" and our only item of value. To give it away to anyone is INSANE and to be asked to sign it away for a 2 cents postage stamp ought to result in you walking out after some strong language has been imparted to the criminal that just made you that "offer". Publishers are thieves - pure and simple and the current contracts in existence are nothing more than intrinsically EVIL and thinly disguised pieces of toilet paper. And you know what to do with toilet paper I assume? How this illegal practise has been allowed to continue to the present day is to me the most surprising aspect of the whole music industry and we, the songwriters who make the WHOLE INDUSTRY possible, are ALLOWING it to continue. No artist should sign LIFE OF COPYRIGHT - we should only EVER "License" our work - there is NO NEED for any party to OWN your copyright.
I invite RIGHT NOW any publisher to reply to this notice and to tell us WHY they "must" own our copyrights and WHY we the writers cannot license our copyrights to them, which is ALL THAT THEY DO thereafter.
I AM WAITING FOR A REPLY AND SO IS EVERY OTHER SONGWRITER....... ....... ....... ....... ......
strange, there seems to be a silence............
WATCH THIS SPACE FOR ANSWERS COLLEAGUES! There will be none of course because the TRUTH is that there is no answer that is not a lie. What I have written and exposed here is UNANSWERABLE and LIFE OF COPYRIGHT constitutes "unfair and resrtictive business practice. WE MUST ALL DEMAND CHANGE and that LIFE OF COPYRIGHT is our INALIEBLE RIGHT -PERIOD. No publisher will go out of business becase they are busy LICENSING. The only right we are removing from their grasp is to SELL off our copyrights and to profit without giving us a red cent. We wrote it, we created it and we should OWN it in perpetuity and SELL it when WE wish to, if we wish to. Remember: THE MUSIC BUSINESS IS PRIMARILY A RIGHTS BUSINESS and that begins with the SONG. Our song.
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ABSOLUTELY!!!!!
I have been trying to get my songs back from Warner Bros who published my songs in 1978!
They have never used them in 27 years, I have never received 1 statement, or 1 penny, or 1 reply, to any of my letters requesting the return of my songs.
With your permission I will alter your post accordingly and send tho Warner Bros (from me of course)
YOU HAVE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!
Thanks again.
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Dear Rockin´ Dave Taylor,
I suggested in a different forum on CDbaby that everyone remains calm about the American Idol Issue - my guess is that the contract was drawn up by over zealous lawyers. Let´s wait and see the MK2 contract. Everything is negotiable with contracts and the company have admitted that they had made errors. If they want to keep their new flagship afloat, they´ll do their best to sail in friendly waters and not be seen as pirates.
The point of my emails about copyright is simply that "rights" were in question and this sparked off a lot of anger and concern. The only point I wish to drive home to everyone is that we should all retain our copyrights and only agree to licence them. We are all in the same business and publishers aren´t any different - they are just trying to make a living. They do this by licensing copyrights and my argument is that we should be the first to do the licensing and then let everyone else who is interested in our material run with it from there. They will have the same income as they did before which they are welcome to, of course. But there is, and let us be clear, no need for anyone to own your copyright or mine because they can license it without owning it! If they want to own the copyright, it is because they want to sell it. In that case, they should pay any writer or his heirs a dividend from that sale plus an ongoing percentage and/or buy the copyright at the outset from the writer, if he is willing to sell it. It should NOT be a condition of any contract that a writer "must" relinquish his copyright for the price of a postage stamp! The fact that the real reason publishers want to own a copyright is hidden and not revealed in any contract. It should be an open and visible codicil in any agreement ie: "NOTE: The publisher requires the copyright for the minimum payment allowed by law so that he may sell it for profit at any future time and the writer agrees to this condition unless the publisher has agreed to LICENSE the work from the writer for a set period, as given in the next paragraph:"
Something along those lines would suffice. Life Of Copyright should nver have made it into print on any contract and it is the single most harmful clause in this industry. Those with a vested interest will of course argue for its retention but the plain truth is that its a false premise and designed with one object in mind: To own someone elses work forever, at no cost! - and then to sell it to the highest bidder.
It is absurd. Can you imagine the rush on stocks and shares if they were offered for free? That day will never come!! So I ask you, how did it EVER become reality in the music "business" ?
Its a basic question and one that every writer needs to address. It should be at the top of our agenda, not an afterthought that has been raised as a result of the issue of rights with American Idol.
If we don´t try to get this basic tenet of the whole "rights" business cleared up now, we face a miserable future that will be no different from the past. Music is a production line like every other commodity. At the quality control end, if something is wrong, it is stripped down and repaired or thrown away.
The "single song agreement/assignment (!)" or the "blanket agreement" both need to be re-written. Licensing IS the only word we need to remember and I ask all writers to keep this uppermost in their minds and to repeat this mantra: "The music business is primarily a RIGHTS business". That sums it up.
Andy - you are welcome to use any part of my emails if it helps you and that goes for any member of the community.
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Your collective silent and grave attention please:
The scene: A horse and chuck wagon with ACME MUSIC PUBLISHER hastily painted on both sides of the canvas. Underneath can just be seen the previous advert which read only 5 minutes ago: "Miracle Hair Restorer".
Part 2: Wagon driver and companion ride into Dry Gulch City center, pull up outside the local bar, opposite the whorehouse and the Chinese laundry - inbetween is the Town Music Hall.
Part 3: "Strangers" in town always attract interest. A small crowd soon gathers, The "proprietor" of ACME MUSIC PUBLISHING who was once a law copywriter before selling hair restorer has during his travels, racked his brain for the ultimate rip off. One night, farting over the camp fire, he "sees the light" and being a banjo picker himself with a few original tunes that are useless except for scaring off wolves, he knows a little bit about the aspirations of songwriters. On this night under the stars as his loudest fart rips through the night air, "ACME MUSIC PUBLISHING" is born.
Part 4: (Rewind to scene outside the Music Hall). SPIEL: "Ladies and Gentleman, I am the proud proprietor of Acme Music Publishing and I offer to you songwriters in town the once in a lifetime opportunity to sign a contract that will see your work recognised throughout the territory and sung and performed in the greatest cities of our America. I, Horatio Bullshitter, am prepared to offer you 50% of all the royalites I recieve for the performance and reproduction of sheet music and piano rolls of your compositions! Step right up, sign here and the deal is done. Don´t you worry (nervous farts) about this here clause about LIFE OF COPYRIGHT. I say I NEED this clause to be here so that I can get your works reproduced all over the place. If I dont gets it performed I will gives it back to you anyways. But musical brothers and sisters, I promise to at least try and get your work heard by the masses and out of this dusty corner of our good country!" Applause.
Part 5: A large crowd has gathered by now, the town drunks are falling over or asleep. Dogs are barking. The local songwriters rush forward and sign contracts that GIVE OWNERSHIP of their songs for LIFE and 75 years after their deaths, to our founder of the ACME MUSIC PUBLISHING EMPIRE of today. In that dusty town somewhere, LIFE OF COPYRIGHT took its first breaths.
Part 6: After 12 months of travelling in his chuck wagon, (selling Hair Restorer whenever he can meantime and saving his money) - Horatio rents a small room near the busy theater district of "Music Town" and word soon spreads about his "new fangled ideas" and "contracts". He approaches the theaters and offers "his" new compositions. The music, never before heard, stirs the souls of the local population.
Part 7: Fast fwd: Horatio´s office is a sumptous affair indeed on "Main Street". Over the years, oh my, did he build up a nice business! In the meantime, many similar others have sprung up and Music "Publishing" has swiftly become a BOOM industry. Horatio´s concept contract and LIFE OF COPYRIGHT have become standard issue and copied throughout the land and even honed by lawyers with degrees and honours in the study of corporate law.
Part 8: Having had several musical gems in his "catalog of copyrights", including "Oh Susanna" and "Happy Birthday", Horatio is approached by a competitor from the other side of the State who offers to buy ACME MUSIC PUBLISHING. Horatio lights a big fat cigar and says "Well my friend, how much do you think my valuable copyrights are worth to your good company?"
Part 9: After much bargaining, the deal is done for 25,000 US dollars. An incredible fortune for those far off times. You see, the publisher from the other side of the state had the finance to buy Horatio because HIS "other" business was the selling of Enfield Repeating Rifles and ammunition. His music "business" was set up to run at a loss to deflect massive taxes imposed by the Govt. He needed a "loss leader" to offset the incredible profits from arms dealing.
ARE YOU WITH ME COLLEAGUES?
Part 10: Fast fwd to the year 2005. Look around you at the major recording labels and their affilliated "publishing arms". Look at their massive song catalogs and "copyright banks". These huge banks of copyrights which are so HIGHLY valuable were collected over periods of many years and held in a vice-like grip until they were deemed to be "sellable assets".
Part 11: LIFE OF COPYRIGHT, once established in that dusty town, made its thieving appearance in every single song contract that has been offered ever since. It is the "mainstay" of the music business. The whole music industry is built on the principles of ACME PUBLISHING and Horatio´s legacy. The jobs in the industry, the many offshoots of it, the living made by its myriad employees around the world - most of whom couldn´t get a tune out of a penny whistle - ALL THIS and the incredible profits which are invested, sold and bought again, over and over have been made possible by LIFE OF COPYRIGHT. And by our distant and contemporary colleagues who inadvertantly signed away their songs for NOTHING for LIFE plus 75 years A.D.
Part 12: Every record company has a publishing "arm". If you are fortunate enough to be offered a deal, you will be asked "What about your publishing? We´d like to have that". It means, "What about your songs and ownership of them - who owns them?" "When we offer a deal, we want the publishing - naturally........." Seeing their big chance and shot at fame, the band or artist signs on the dotted line givíng "LIFE OF COPYRIGHT" to all their material presently written, and anything they might write for the term of the contract to the label. For nothing, at "NO COST"!
Presto: The label now owns all your material for your life and 75 years after your death. It is approached by SESAME SEED RECORDS from Japan with a huge buyout offer for the whole company, especially the "copyrights" and a BIG deal is struck where incredible sums of money are transferred internationally between banks and private accounts. The ex heads of the purchased company retire to oceanside palaces and live happily ever after. They send their kids to private schools and pay off debts outstanding. For Xmas, they buy Johnnie and Laverne a Porsche each and anything else their little hearts do desire. Daddy buys himself a Learjet - why not?
Part 13: UNLUCKY FOR US.
PS: Paul McCartney, ex bass player of The Beatles wrote, amongst others, a song called YESTERDAY. Question: Who owns this song/copyright ? Paul McCartney? WRONG!!
Answer: Michael Jackson - how was this possible? Sir McCartney signed a contract that had the 3 magic words in clause #1, on page #1: LIFE OF COPYRIGHT.
I shall write again, of this, you can be sure. NEVER SIGN ANYTHING THAT STATES ON IT "LIFE OF COPYRIGHT". Never. Ever. Not under any circumstances. Walk away.
Andy Martin
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LIFE OF COPYRIGHT and Acme Music Publishing, the last word:
Horatio and his contract should have been run out of town by enraged songwriters. Instead, he won the day. The hair restorer he was selling before he founded Acme Music Publishing would have come in very useful for all of us songwriters, who´s hair has already fallen out because of his invention, "life of copyright". Maybe all songwriting contracts should come with a "free" bottle of it....?
I know it is hard to walk away when you are desperate for that deal! But it is that very desperation that is our "Achilles heel". Publishers know this only too well. So knowing that you want the deal desperately, the publisher knows that 100% of the time you WILL sign.
Now is your chance to turn the tables in 2005. Now is OUR chance to put LIFE OF COPYRIGHT in a sealed tomb. The only response at this delicate stage of the proceedings is to reply:
"I am sorry, but there is an ancient clause in your contract at the top of this page that your lawyers seem to have missed. It states LIFE OF COPYRIGHT. This is 2005 and the new music business of today is all about LICENSING. My offer is to LICENSE my work to you and any other titles for 50% for the agreed term. My work on this CD is to master standard. I paid for it and I created it in the first place. There were no costs to you at all. I realise you will be trying to place it with artists and sub-publishers but you will be LICENSING it won´t you? - you don´t need to own the copyright to do that! If you believe in my material enough to want to own it - then surely you will not refuse my offer to license it to you? You need to make some mp3´s, send out some emails to your contacts and make hard copies for some mailouts of course but there is no major expense and you aren´t offering to buy my song - and I am not offering to sell it to you. If you decline this offer, I am sure that someone else will want to earn 50% of the potential income!"
Here stands the strength of your conviction: The basic right for you to own your own songs.
Remember, for every occasion that we agree to sign any document where it states LIFE OF COPYRIGHT, we are breathing life into the old monster and it lives on another day.
Every refusal is a nail in the coffin of LIFE OF COPYRIGHT (LOC) - and that is an accurate and fitting abbreviation because once signed, your song is LOC´d up for life plus 75 years.
We must not rest from this day forward until LIFE OF COPYRIGHT is DEAD. On its tombstone shall read the inscription:
"Here lies LIFE OF COPYRIGHT - at rest in the Boot Hill of Song. Happilly missed."
Andy Martin - hair restorer, anyone?
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PS: I posted this expose´ of music publishing because the whole furore concerning American Idol Underground has come about due to the issue of RIGHTS and what others can do with them if we are not vigilant. I can´t hammer the point home enough and I will repeat what I have already said "The Music Business Is A Rights Business" and it is the ownership and dispersal of those rights for financial gain that is the CRUX of the whole music industry. We MUST retain copyright and first ownership and we have the strength in numbers to re-write the basic song contract and we MUST. Please, think about it - there is no music business without us and we have held our silence for too long on this CRUCIAL matter.
Remember this: When song contracts were drawn up in the "bad old days" it was the intention to wrest control and ownership of copyright away from songwriters who were "desperate" to get their work recorded. No matter how desperate you might feel, NEVER give away your assets! A songwriters greatest asset is the copyright and so-called publishers know this only too well! You have been warned! THERE IS STRENGTH IN NUMBERS as this present issue regarding AIU has proven - and its all about rights.
Lets shift focus now to the core of the issue, which is the unteneble and HATED issue of LIFE OF COPYRIGHT and I won´t rest until I see that vile phrase banished from every contract in existence. But I can´t do it alone :-(
From the heart - Andy Martin
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Yeah, I originally opted in for 'Tasty Audio'. Then I opted out without having signed their online agreement. I think some services want too much. A life-time-royalty free deal that's IRREVOCABLE!--
somebody must think we was raised up on Jack-Ass-
Boulevard!
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For the legal record, I am one of those copyright owners who has never logged in to American Idol Underground, has never accepted their terms or their contract, and has never granted to them any license whatsoever for the use of my songs. In spite of this, American Idol Underground has uploaded all of my songs on their website without permission and made them available to the public.
All of the suggestions that I have seen for deleting one's own account involve logging in to the AIU website. Obviously, as it might constitute acceptance of their terms, I do not wish to log in and will not do so. I have sent messages to AIU and to Bob Buch, telling them to delete my songs, account and information from their site. So far, three days have passed since I notified them and they still have not removed my copyrighted works from their site.
PB Ploy, BMI
Quagga Music and Publishing
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Like PB PLoy, I also never signed the agreement or logged in. When I went there just as a regular visited and typed in my name bingo! Music of the Light and Christmas All Year Through are both up there. I gladly gave CDbaby permission to send my products to AIU, understanding that the agreement would come when the site was ready to launch.
It seems that AIU just tossed everything received up onto the site. Did everyone receive an invitation to to to the site and sign up? I didn't but I have a great spam blocker and maybe the AIU post landed in that file and was deleted without my seeing it. I do know that I have never heard from them...even today when some of the artists have received the follow up note, I haven't seen it in my email.
The panic that seems to be running through our community does seem a bit exaggerated. As I sat here reading ALL these postings I thought we certainly NOW have become a well informed bunch and can all act accordingly. Every cloud has a silver lining.
Write to the founders of AIU, tell them your reason for wanting to be removed and keep a copy. And then keep an eye out to make sure you are removed. OR very possibly, the new terms and agreement will be acceptable.
Maybe I'm naive but I cannot believe these guys want to alienate CDBaby and the huge community of JPFolks and anyone else that hears of this snafu.
Maybe we ought to give them the benefit of the doubt and see what happens with the rising up of so many artists....Peace to All, Lynn Geyer ><>
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Everyone needs to take a breath and get back to reality over what happened here. Again - Derek and CD Bbay are 110% legit and helpful. They have done so much good for indie artists over the years. Scams have existed since the beginning of time. AI didn't decide to scam us because of our talent. They wanted our C A S H. Hasn't anyone reading these posts here ever been scammed?! Wake up people! Do the math. If you send out an email offer to a bunch of hungry artists and charge them 50 bucks for something - the bad guys will get SOME response. They will get 50 dollars from at least SOME of the people. That's what they wanted. Haven't you ever been to a shady car dealer or a time share sales pitch?! There are those who work for money and then there are those who work hard at trying to figure out how not to work - to get their money. Derek needs to be left alone. He got us into
I-tunes and he did it in a hurry. He took care of credit card machine costs for us, stocking your cds (that sell way slower than you think) .....on and on.
I don't want to get nasty here - but let's just all chill out. Feel free to pat yourself on the back for going over the "contract" in the first place. We should always be proactive about such business matters. But the realistic chances of any one of us selling tons of stuff through some bullshit American Idol thingie - aren't great enough to justify chewing out Derek - who was just as surprised by a company who said one thing to get in and then changed their plan halfway in. In fact, I hope I do sell a bunch of stuff and get big through AI - because then, more people will buy more of my music and come to live shows. Or - I'll be able to sue them and make a big PR stink about it - thereby raising more awareness of CD Baby and the great music there. Don't forget - Derek was working on a Sunday morning to get the word out. Try getting that out of the folks at AI or any other scammy shark infested company.
Leave Derek alone already.
peace...
Bill
www.billwest.tv
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Dear CDBaby Friends,
I'd like to make several points:
1) Derek is a great guy, don't be too hard on him.
2) Most indie artists
AREN'T making much money from their music and
ARE SUFFERING from OBSCURITY,
so most chances to share their music is a good thing.
3) Those who have chosen to remain will probably thank for those who chose to leave for "thinning the herd" and making their music more findable.
4) Carefully read contracts before you sign or click to be sure you can live with the terms.
I've signed a few contracts
I now wish I never signed,
I've clicked a few buttons
I now wish I hadn't clicked, and
I've bought for a few things
I now wish I didn't buy
but i've gained experience and stories.
5) We all make mistakes,
fix them if you can and
live with them if you must.
6) I'd to see what success stories
http://www.idolunderground.com
has had, all of us want more opportunity
Ande Rasmussen
editor and publisher of
Inspirations for Songwriters / IFS
www.SongWriterBlog.com
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A perverse man sows strife ,and a whisperes
separates close friends.Better it is to be humble
with Derek, and a meek spirit. Pleasant word are as honeycomb.Let it be, leave derek alone he's on your side.
Sotam /Horace Riley/CEO
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Hi Derek. Other than this, how's your day so far?
Just wanted to thank you for keeping your cool through the chaos and confusion, although how you do it without coffee is beyond my ken.
Somehow I escaped all this, for which I am grateful. But then the name alone was enough to send me into deep hiding in the New Mexican desert with a rifle and my trusty dog. They might be nice folk of at American Idolotry, despite all the hoopla, but they can't name a web site worth a hoot. Just my opinion.
Remember that it gets better after this.
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Our Am. Idiol Underground web-page: GONE!
As I posted when all of the mess started over this past weekend: if you did not click on the link Am. I.Ugrnd. sent you, then you did not join, thereby giving them your acceptance to that dubious 'Terms and Agreement' we all had such profound troubles with, be they valid or invalid, as the case might have been.
I suggested sending them a 'Letter of Demand' to their 'support@' addy, or to reply to that original email of notice to create your user and pass, in order to remove your Bio and album of songs, if you chose not to join, which songs were submitted for us by CDBaby.com back in July when Derek was given the impression that it would be a great thing for us to join, PRIOR to their having written that 'Ageement.'
* As of Monday late night, all of our Band's info and album of songs have been removed, and the otherwise, web-page is now defunked: gone. So, the 'Letter of Demand' worked by sending those emails as mentioned above.
Now, if you did join and you did create a user/pass, it may not be too late to bail out, if you desire to do so.
Also, I posted a reminder that they charged an extra $50.00 to have your album 'spun' again through the process, which I wanted you to be aware of. That post got misplaced, or was deleted, as I only saw it shortly after it was posted, but can't find it now. Hummmmmm.
Anyway, as far as myself and Greywolf, the Band are concerned, it is in the past.
Enough platitudes given to Derek already, so I won't go there. I am just happy that my advise worked for us, and God willing, it will work for you, too, until such time as they rewrite that Agreement to an acceptable degree.
It all comes out in the wash, ya know.
But one thing we should all be thankful for: we got together and discussed this issue: some got hot under the skin, some got really pissed and some made better our Group's efforts to this Disscussion Board, supplied by CDBaby.com. We are all better artists and members as a result.
Cheers!
Jason 'Greywolf' Leigh
http://jasonleigh.org/greywolf1.htm
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Gone???? Mine is still there in living colour. But the free rotation song has been stagnant since all this ruckus started on the weekend. I am adopting a wait and see.
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Derek has helped us all more then anyone else would have at a small 9% cut.
Keep helping us out Derek and I will keep doing my job... making music, practicing and reading every contract I can get my eyes on.
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Okay, I'm confused...
I removed myself from AIU because of the CONTRACT problems and until they get it fixed, I will watch and wait.
But i have seen posts and complaints here that people can download music from an album (I think that's what they are saying) and that has them upset because it is giving away the album for free.
Not sure, but I didn't see any way to do this. I could hear any song listed, but that's not the same as being able to save it.
So I am not sure what the fuss about having all tracks up on their site is about. It looks like it just gives people more of an opportunity to hear the selections for as long as they are there.
I agree, the contract is really bad and needs to be reworked, but as to the complaints that they are giving away the album or selections on their site-- I can't see it. Maybe I haven't got my system configred right, but all I could do was listen-- and I actually heard some pretty nice stuff.
So, I don't think they are making is possible to download an entire album or even a single song-- just to hear it. A lot of people want to take their tunes with them via iPod or other means. I don't think they can do that in this case.
Maybe I am missing something here, but the playback part of AIU Web system seems quite safe.
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Hi Tim! This is what Stuart A. Kirk wrote on Sunday and is probably what you're thinking about:
"I discovered an alarming bug (presumably) which all CDBaby artists, and any other artists, need to know. The secruty concern is this; ANYONE WHO HAS DOWNLOAD ACCELERATOR PLUS CAN DOWNLOAD ANY AND ALL MUSIC FOR FREE. If you right click on any music file and attempt to downloading is blocked; However, if you use Download Accelerator Plus left clicking a music file will bring up the AIU radio player. DAP users can choose a REGULAR download, which will result in the music file being streamed in the radio player, OR, an ACCELERATED download, which results in the ability to download the entire music file onto your local hard-drive. Thus, anyone who has DAP has access to the entire AUI catalogue for free. I advise everyone and anyone to take all of your music off AUI...." quoted from Stuart A. Kirk, Posted October 30th....Lynn Geyer ><>
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Lynn,
Thanks for the pointer. I don't have that program so I can't verify it. I wonder, however, if this is an issue with Downlaod Accelerator Plus, or AIU? If DAP allows this on any site that streams music, well, then the complaint belongs with DAP and not AIU. If, on the other hand, it is an AIU exclusive issue with DAP users then I can see the point.
I have friends who use Real Player, and they are convinced that thay have actually downloaded stuff using it. In actual fact, they only have downloaded a link. I wonder if this is what DAP does as well?
Just checking.
But thanks for the tip. Has anyone actually tested this issue with other places or to see if the download is actually a link?
This may not be an AIU issue alone, it could be more general.
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Hello Tim,
I’m rather surprised that the DAP issue isn’t being picked up. People use the DAP application because it speeds up download times. On any given artist page within the AIU site anything from 1, to, in some cases, more than twenty entire songs, are available for free download for anyone who has the freely available DAP application. The point is that AIU seem to be hosting entire songs from entire collections available for download using DAP at 128 kbps, and sometimes 192kps, which is fairly reasonable audio quality, and probably perfectly acceptable to any Tom, Dick, or Harold who wants to rip off your entire creative output for nothing. As far as I’m aware, after limited testing, (I don’t have time to check out all the digital download sites that CDBaby has made available for us to opt into) other sites hosting CDBaby artist material allow a thirty second preview of a limited number of songs, or, entire collections of songs. The quality of sound varies. This is fair enough though. You want people to have free access to some of your works, but surely none of us want a situation where our entire creative output is freely available for anyone who uses the very popular DAP application. These are not links, these are entire songs, entire albums, entire collections of work. As far as I know, thus far, AIU is the only site where this issue arises. As I mentioned in my original post I have written to AIU and told them about this issue when I discovered it three days ago. They must be too busy rewriting their contract to have given this any consideration yet. I consider this point to be a fundamentally important and shocking state of affairs. Doesn’t anyone else? I post this information not because I want to have a go at AIU or anyone else, I’m much more interested in telling CDBaby artists, and any other artists on AIU, that you need to protect your work. Get it out of there.
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I would very much like to get my work out of there, but even
though I sent them an email insisting in no uncertain terms to
take down my files, they are all still up there, and I see that my
song is still getting spins in their rotation. I never did sign in to
my account, for fear of agreeing to their bogus contract, so I
couldn't delete the account internally. Not sure what else I can
do, I suppose another email is in order, but what if that brings
no result?
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Just wondering if the honchos at AIU have made any attenpt to offer an explanation directly to CDBaby. I think it would go a long way if they'd send a letter to Derek to be shared with the community of CDBaby artists. Just 2 more cents. Lynn ><>
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After I wrote the above question and posted it, I discovered the original note Bob Buch wrote to all of us on Sunday, Oct. 30th...It's on the main page of cdbaby.org if anyone who hasn't read it wishes to see what he has to say. Lynn Geyer ><>
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Fellow Artists, We love you guys and sisters. So we wish to express this to you, Brother Derek and Bob Buch are experts in our music business. They know what we all are going through, so hang in there and have a little faith and trust in Cd Baby and American Idol Underground.What have got to lose? We are praying for all of you and most important of all, we need each other, amen? All Types Of Music Ministries Inc.
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TO ME THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM....MY MUSIC IS STILL UP THERE....FREE PUBLISITY IF YOU ASK ME....THEY CAN FORGET ABOUT ME PAYING THEM TO ADD MORE OF MY MUSIC THOUGH.....
PEACE BIG-SHANG
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