| CD Baby DIY Musician Podcast |
 Dec. 14,
2008
Ep.41 : What's Your Story?
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| The biggest scam ever or another showbiz secret that everyone knows? |
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| posted by Igor on Sunday July 13 2003 @ 09:58PM PDT |
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We released our CD ourselves - paid for the recording and printing - and we're working really hard to promote it. After sending it to a few college stations we had some radio play, and things look bright.
However, we also discovered what we believe to be a huge scam. Somebody put our CD for sale at Amazon zShops and it could only be a promo copy. Is it just something we don't know about this business or we ran into a particular scambag?
Just imagine setting up yourself as a radio station, getting all the promo stuff and selling it on zShops or eBay... You don't have to work!!!
A big label would probably not notice the financial dent, but to us the situation is totally disasterous. Not only the station didn't play our CD (the seller's ad says "never used"), instead of giving it away to someone who might like it, they're selling it, competing with our own sales!!!
I guess we need to make a stamp and put "PROMO COPY! NOT FOR SALE!" all over the artwork... Not that it would stop the culprit, as we found from the customer feedback he gets.
Is this a regular practice? How can a band protect themselves against this?
We obviously complained to the Amazon staff, hopefully they'll close that sale soon, but we can't monitor every auction site on the web...
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Don't worry - the odds are extremely high it
won't sell on Amazon.
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I guess we need to make a stamp and put "PROMO COPY! NOT FOR SALE!" all over the artwork
Not a bad idea at all :)
Here's a tip: next time, punch a hole through the barcode so it can't be scanned. Some labels also diagonally cut a corner off the CD insert in addition to a label. None of these things will guarantee that someone won't try to re-sell your promo CD (in fact, I end up buying tons of promo CDs from used record stores), but it's standard industry practice to somehow "deface" promo CDs so that people think twice about selling it.
But try not to sweat it too much. If you're lucky, maybe your promo CD will end up in the hands of someone who REALLY likes it!
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Some labels also diagonally cut a corner off the CD insert in addition to a label
Um, what I meant to say was: some record labels cut a corner off the CD insert in addition to using a sticker. Heh.
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Punching a hole is the way to go!
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Most people on this site would sh*t just to
have someone buy their CD and like it,
regardless of the origin or how it got there.
Jeez man, that old saying comes to mind,
"Don't sweat the small stuff." If this is the kind
of problem you are spending your time on,
your priorities are whacked.
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Huh? We sent it so that they would at least check it out and play it on the air if they like it. "Never used" kinda says it all?
We have plenty of people liking our CD, and if you think we should jump with joy when someone's ripping us off - you've got really strange priorities yourself.
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You have to take responsibility for what you did
- you sent out a promo hoping to get someone
to do something, they didn't want to do it. Why
did they not want to do it? Maybe you didn't do
your homework about the kind of submissions
the station accepts. Maybe their format is not
compatible with your music. Maybe you didn't
even verify it was a real station before you
mailed off the promo. Bottom line: you sent it
out, it's a done deal - it's just 'spilt milk' it didn't
work out.
"We're selling quite well on Amazon, by the
way. "
Then what the 'f' are you complaining about?!
Time and energy spent bitching and
complaining about one isolated incident?
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Maybe you won't speculate about the kind of homework we do?
As for your inability to understand why we're upset, next time you're really hungry and go to buy a hamburger, pay for it and let whoever is next in line grab your order and eat it in front of you, and then tell us that you are all happy about it.
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I'm basically doing that everytime I send a
check to the Rescue Mission.
You turned loose of the CD of your own free
will. Deal with it.
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If they sold anywhere else we wouldn't be as pissed as when they're selling our own promo on the same page where we're trying to sell our CD ourselves.
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And they haven't been successful.
Have they?
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So the radio person thinks our CD is good enought to sell but not good enough to play on the air?
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| by
on Tuesday July 15 2003 @ 03:50PM PDT [ reply | parent ] |
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>> Just imagine setting up yourself as a radio station, getting all the promo stuff and selling it on zShops or eBay... You don't have to work!!!
Dude, you really think that you can make good money trying to sell a CD that no one has heard, that no one plays??? Do you know how many CDs they get daily? There's only so much need for coasters...
Take it down a notch. Punch In.
>>they're selling it, competing with our own sales!!!
Dude, again. Punch In. Did it even sell? How much were they selling it for? If there's such a demand for the product, here's an idea, sell yours for less!!!! Til they run out and then stack the price!!! There you go!
>> at least check it out and play it on the air if they like it. "Never used" kinda says it all?
You're taking the words "never used" literally, as in they never played the first 45 seconds?!!
You're either too literal or too gullible, or both.
Like beezelbub says: Don't worry - the odds are extremely high it
won't sell on Amazon.
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Dude, wouldn't it make sense to play it and then sell it? Duh... Dude-dude-dude... We're selling as cheaply as we can, he got it for free, there's no way to beat that. He's selling 15000 titles, I think he needs not work if he sells a dozen a day...
My friend, a music journalist, gives promos he's not interested in away to people who want them. Doesn't sell them, much less on the same site where the band sells.
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We're selling quite well on Amazon, by the way. It's not exactly my problem what radio stations do with "humndreds CDs they receive daily." It's their job. One thing they cannot do is sell them.
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By the way, have you released your own CD, like paying for everything yourself? Are you speaking from experience? You sound like you work for a radio station and sell promos yourself...
Now his hat is on backwards
He can show you his tatoos
He is in the music business
He is calling you "DUDE!"
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My guess is that the station needed to drop some CDs (they only have so much space in the Performing Arts Hall basement, y'know), and some college student at the station took 'em and is trying to sell them.
This is not a huge scam. People who sell promo CDs are lucky to make a few bucks off 'em, especially if it's a new band. Look in the cut bin of any record shop -- you'll find tons of promo CDs for sale (especially unsigned bands). The best you can do is try the hole-punch thing and maybe a sticker. Other than that, you've already contacted Amazon about the one CD, so there's nothing more you can do.
(Oh, and DON'T go crazy on the sticker message. Just put "PROMO COPY -- Not For Sale" and leave it at that. If you get too smart-alecky, I guarantee they WON'T even listen to your CD, let alone play it.)
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That's what we'll do in the end.
But that "student" has some nerve to be selling right there where we are selling. Our own listing says, "Buy CD directly from the band", and he's listed his promo copy right next to that for nearly the same price... At least he could go somewhere else and not compete with us directly, not to mention respond to our email. We only complained to Amazon after we got no reply from him.
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Yeah, after reading some of the other comments in this thread, now I think it was probably one of those guys who go around buying all the stuff they can and reselling it on Amazon and eBay. The radio station was probably trying to dump some CD backstock, and this guy probably bought a box of 100 CDs off them for $20, in hopes of making a profit when he sells them.
I think you have every right to be upset. It IS crappy that his offer is right there on your page But remember that Amazon does that automatically -- it groups the products together in zShops, and I'll bet this guy didn't even check to see if the original artists were already selling on Amazon when he put his kazillion used/promo CDs up for sale.
Unfortunately I don't think there's much more you can do. Look on the bright side. You might lose a CD sale to this bozo, but at least your record would end up in the hands of a listener -- one who might become a fan, and buy your t-shirts, and come to your shows, and tell his friends, etc. That's better than your record ending up in the trash.
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>> My friend, a music journalist, gives promos
he's not interested in away to people who
want them. Doesn't sell them, much less on
the same site where the band sells.
Then the person who gets it, who didn't pay for
it, might give it a few spins, then decide to sell
it on Z-Shops. Net result - no money for u.
Same difference.
Get in bed with the big corporate Elephant,
and watch out when he rolls over!
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Scott, thanks for the moral support. Looking at it your way helps, along with the fact that we just got an order for 20 CDs :)
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OK, Lars... Take another pill...
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Huh? We put our CD on several P2P networks ourselves. Go get it.
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I think the problem is your screaming about
this, calling it 'The biggest scam ever', and
saying, 'to us the situation is totally
disasterous'.
You're talking about 10 bucks here.
Totally disasterous?
When you give something away, the recipient
can do WHATEVER THEY WANT WITH IT. It's
THEIR PROPERTY.
Live and Learn and Try to move on.
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Well, yeah, but we weren't giving them away. We sent a promo CD to the radio station, following their instructions. They don't like it - oh, well. They didn't even listen to it - that sucks. They're selling it - not nice. They're selling it on our page - that's really not nice. But you're right, it's not disasterous. It's just really rude and annoying. I'm moving on though. Maybe Amazon will do something about it, maybe not, I've done my part. Live and learn indeed. Cheers!
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Hi,
If your mark your promo copies as such, getting the listing for a promo being resold on Amazon.com taaken down is very easy. (If you don't punch a hole in the barcode or have "promo copy" printed on it somewhere you are indeed out of luck!)
Legally, promo copies sent out do not belong to the person you sent them to, and they cannot do whatever they like with it. Promo copies remain the property of the record label (you, if you're indie) even after you have sent them to a journalist, dj, etc.
It's a clear violation of Amazon Marketplace policy to sell promotional items. If your merchandise is marked as a promo and you see it listed and can recognize that it's a promo (i.e. the seller's note says something like "hole in barcode but otherwise new") you can write amazon and they will take the listing down almost immediately.
Of course, selling promos is very common, and when the Marketplace listing is taken down, that person will probably sell your CD somewhere else.
But at least it won't be listed on your Amazon page competing directly with your new product.
Hope this helps. :)
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>>Legally, promo copies sent out do not
>> belong to the person you sent them to, and
>>they cannot do whatever they like with it.
>>Promo copies remain the property of the
>>record label (you, if you're indie) even after
>>you have sent them to a journalist, dj, etc.
You are seriously mistaken on this matter.
Please check with your lawyer.
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Promo copies are sold ***all*** the time. The kids in
whatever marketing dept or radio station crate them up
and bring them to the store. It's their beer money. Make
Haste! Records has a great comment about what you
can do, regarding the Amazon situation. Indie stores
buy them without question and used-bin seekers further
the scenario by making the purchase. --Even with
markings or bar code punches--- so just know that it is
part of the cost of doing business.
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Hmm...
I own a copy of Blue Man Group's "The Complex" which was a promotional advance which wasn't supposed to be for resale. I didn't realize that it was promotional until I got it.
That said, I liked the "warm fuzzies" I got from knowing that I got it, and nowhere along the chain, the RIAA got money.
That doesn't enter the picture when it's indies selling. Which is why I usually pay full price for indies, instead of buying used.
Even so, don't beat yourself up over this. Promotional copies being sold aren't rare or bad or anything. It just is. If you give away your stuff, whether or not you stamp "not for resale" on them, you no longer own it, and it's up to the guy who DOES own the CD what to do with it. It's why Wrigley's can't sue a vendor who breaks up a pack of chewing gum marked "not for individual sale" and sues them individually. Once it leaves the hands of the first owner, the second owner can do whatever the hell he wants.
If you don't like this, here are some options:
*Make all your promotional copies on CD-R. These cannot be sold on ebay (sad but true.)
*Offer to give the songs to the DJ in MP3 format if he accepts them.
*Make promotional CDs with 5 songs (your most "airworthy") and your albums with the full set.
-- Funksaw
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I ran into this problem once. It was annoying, but it's not something to get too upset about.
Here's what I did... I bought the CD myself. Yeah, the seller made a couple bucks from my CD, and I was out a few bucks. But it got the competing CD off Amazon, and I can turn around and sell it for $15 at one of my shows... not much different than offering a one-time discount for a sale.
-ME
--
Michael Eagleson
EagleSongs Ltd.
http://www.eaglesongs.com
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It was annoying, but it's not something to get too upset about.
I agree, now. At first it's extremely upsetting, but then I thought, who cares. If someone wants to support our band, they know which copy we're selling. And if they buy the other copy - it's still one CD out there in the hands of someone who cares enough to pay for it.
I still would like to know which station it leaked from. I think I'll be marking the station I'm sending the CD to somewhere on the insert in the future, then I can buy the CD the way you did and learn for sure who sold it.
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The real problem is not just Amazon and eBay, but the overwhelming number of used CD shops and pawn shops. They buy CD's as well. And if you're inventory is free, then what do you care if you sell it for $2 or $10, it's all profit. But this is a regular practice in the industry.
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i've had my songs and my label on national radio since the 80's. the promo copies are suposed to have a hole drilled through the bar code and right through the jewel case. these can not be sold anywhere. as others have posted, just put Not for sale or resale, or promo copy on the disks and no problem. stations have thousands of CDs every week and they toss most that are not going to "fly". if you have a hit record, you will know the procedures or find them out very fast!.
J
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I had a couple of my demos appear on Amazon.com, as Used
and New, along side the CD's I sent there to sell legit. I
contacted the sellers about it, never received a response.
To be quite honest, I bring in way more through downloads and
streams than I do at Amazon. And I bailed out of the Amazon
Advantage system because of the expense, being a very low
volume seller.
The used copies are still at Amazon, haven't sold. But if they do I
just figure I might gain another fan. That's a good thing for me,
even if it cost me a couple of demos, and someone else makes
$5 on it. I really could care less, it's not like I'm a huge attraction
and people are making a huge profit on my music. When that
happens I'll deal with it then. For now it's just extra potential
exposure
I'm sticking with CDBaby distribution for all of my future
releases. For me that's the only way to go.
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| NOTE: If you need a reply you should email CD Baby directly instead of posting here. We don't often read old message board postings, and have no way of replying to them!
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